Mesa Lonestar Special reverb has died again!

stonevibe

Second time the reverb on this amp has died.

Pretty pissed off that this keeps happening to this amp. Would seem its a fairly common issue with this series of amps.

So sending tray back to Westside and getting them to replace it (again).

Any suggestions as to why these reverb tanks keep crapping out on these amps?

ROOG

Probably the same make of tank as has gone on my fender amp. II recall ICBM saying why they fail, something to do with the fine wire "windings" from the transducers? Hopefully he will pop by soon and tell us. Must have a look at mine some time.

knuckleberryfinn

It's the stupid plug they mount on the transducers, which wobble about and keep work-hardening the wires till they snap.  As far as I can find out, no reverb tank manufacturers make them without these plugs anymore.  It's incredibly annoying knowing that buying a reverb tank means probably only having working reverb for a few months.  

There is a bodge-it solution though.  Some tanks have holes in the main tank which align with holes on the inner, spring-carrying tank.  If your tank has these, you can mount a bolt (as light as possible) on the inner tank so that the threaded end passes through the hole in the outer tank.  Mount a wing nut on the end of the bolt, and when you are moving the amp or driving it anywhere, screw the wingnut down.  This immobilizes the inner tank - the wires get jolted when the amp is moved, not when it is being played through.  Just don't forget to undo the wing nut when you are using the amp.

If your tank has no holes, I suppose you could drill them - though the vibrations caused by the drilling might cause of the tank to break before you've protected it from itself!

ROOG

Thanks @knuckleberryfinn that sounds familiar

richardhomer

I've got a 2005 LSS which has never had a reverb tank replacement - is it just the more recent ones which have a reputation for being unreliable?

If it's a known problem, would a reverb pedal in the loop not be a more cost-effective solution?

knuckleberryfinn

Yes, I think it's only since the early or mid-2000s.  I discussed this all with ICBM when my tank topped working, though I think that was on the MR forum.  The Fender reissue of the 6G15 reverb unit uses a tank which has an in-built locking mechanism, so maybe getting one of these would do the trick.  But you'd have to check the impedance match with the reverb transformer.  Billm gives a good summary of the mysterious reverb tank codes: http://home.comcast.net/~machrone/bjr/reverbcodes.htm

And for the record, I use a reverb pedal now.

ICBM

Yes, this is unfortunately a design fault on newer Accutronics reverb tanks. The weight of the push-connector is enough to vibrate the pins and break the fine coil wires where they go over the edge of the bobbin - sometimes if you're *very* careful, you can bridge it with a whisker of some other wire, but it's tricky and the success rate isn't high - I only bother trying if I haven't got anything better to do.

I'm not sure if securing the inner tray will help - it's the vibration of the push-connector which is the problem not the vibration of the tray, and locking it to the tank might actually make it worse because the tray springs will not absorb some of the movement.

The best thing to do is to pre-emptively repair it before it breaks - remove the push-connector and solder the wires directly to the pins as close to the bobbin as possible, and preferably seal over the joints with hot-melt glue so the wires are firmly attached to the bobbin. You can do both ends, although it's extremely rare for the input one to break because the wires are much thicker. (As I realised after I'd kept at least a dozen broken ones in the hope of being able to make one good one out of two dead ones… no. All dead at the output end.)

I'm not sure when the design changed, but I think it was before 2005, so an unbroken one from then or later is quite good going. Some of the cheap reverb tanks are still made the old way with the wires going directly into the coil, but these don't usually sound as good. Unfortunately when Belton took over Accutronics, they adopted the bad method instead of carrying on doing it their right way...

I actually now think that a decent digital reverb is better than a poor quality spring.

stonevibe

I think I read that thread about dodgy reverb tanks the other week.

Anyone know any decent alternative reverb tanks I could put in place of the original one?

knuckleberryfinn

ICBM said:

I'm not sure if securing the inner tray will help - it's the vibration of the push-connector which is the problem not the vibration of the tray, and locking it to the tank might actually make it worse because the tray springs will not absorb some of the movement.

The best thing to do is to pre-emptively repair it before it breaks - remove the push-connector and solder the wires directly to the pins as close to the bobbin as possible, and preferably seal over the joints with hot-melt glue so the wires are firmly attached to the bobbin. You can do both ends, although it's extremely rare for the input one to break because the wires are much thicker. (As I realised after I'd kept at least a dozen broken ones in the hope of being able to make one good one out of two dead ones… no. All dead at the output end.)

I might actually be in danger of showing ICBM something useful for once - I do owe him a lot.  Securing the tray definitely helps a lot.  When the inner tray moves, the wires going to the push on connector try not to, and the connector vibrates.  Securing the inner tray to the outer completely stops all these vibrations.  Only the connector can vibrate, and its so light, and is secured in place by the wires and the bobbin on either side that it doesn't.  

But after ICBM told me about the other fix, I have done both on my mate's Blues Junior reverb tank and it's now rock solid.

stonevibe said:

I think I read that thread about dodgy reverb tanks the other week.

Anyone know any decent alternative reverb tanks I could put in place of the original one?

TAD does tanks but I'm not sure if the design is any different.  Maybe email them?  http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Reverb_Cans_Effects/

knuckleberryfinn

Zooming in on the TAD tanks, it looks like they are push-on connector free!  I bloody hope so.

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/en/shop_Reverb_Cans_Effects_TAD_Reverb_Cans/4AB3C1B_TAD_Reverb_Can_2x2_Springs_2196

Voxman

I just think its ridiculous and quite frankly unacceptable to have such a design issue causing repeated failures on an amp costing some £1,800 or so from a manufacturer like Mesa. I have an Accutronics spring reverb in my Laney VC30 and if Laney can fit it right on an amp costing a quarter of the Lonestar, you'd think Mesa could too. 

ICBM

Voxman said:

I just think its ridiculous and quite frankly unacceptable to have such a design issue causing repeated failures on an amp costing some £1,800 or so from a manufacturer like Mesa. I have an Accutronics spring reverb in my Laney VC30 and if Laney can fit it right on an amp costing a quarter of the Lonestar, you'd think Mesa could too. 

But Laney have fitted the bad reverb tank as well! It just hasn't broken yet on yours.

You can't really hold Laney up as an example of good build quality in general either. 'Getting away with the minimum' is closer to the mark. To be fair, on the more recent amps they use digital reverb, which is much more reliable.

ROOG

Chaps, before I go and buy a direct replacement for the tank in my Blues Jr, is there a good upgrade unit you would recommend?

I quite like spring units, but the one fitted to the Jr was never particularly good to my ear even when it did work!  

ThePrettyDamned

Stupid question but...

Is there any advantage to having a spring, amp reverb rather than a pedal? Or even a digital reverb?

Surely an effects loop and no reverb is better because you can either put a pedal of your choosing in, including something like the Danelectro spring king, or even a valve driven vintage reverb unit, or a hall, plate, cave etc emulation that sounds better. Plus you can have delays and modulations and...

smigeon

I had the same problem with my Carr Viceroy. Advice from Carr was that the TAD item was indeed better than the Accutronics - Carr have been fitting TADs (or the US equivalent that is apparently made in the same factory) to their amps recently and have seen an improvement. This isn't to say the TAD one is necessarily perfect of course but probably worth considering...

knuckleberryfinn

smigeon said:

I had the same problem with my Carr Viceroy. Advice from Carr was that the TAD item was indeed better than the Accutronics - Carr have been fitting TADs (or the US equivalent that is apparently made in the same factory) to their amps recently and have seen an improvement. This isn't to say the TAD one is necessarily perfect of course but probably worth considering...

This is good to hear.  I'll definitely be buying a TAD one next.  

Voxman

ICBM said:

Voxman said:

I just think its ridiculous and quite frankly unacceptable to have such a design issue causing repeated failures on an amp costing some £1,800 or so from a manufacturer like Mesa. I have an Accutronics spring reverb in my Laney VC30 and if Laney can fit it right on an amp costing a quarter of the Lonestar, you'd think Mesa could too. 

But Laney have fitted the bad reverb tank as well! It just hasn't broken yet on yours.

You can't really hold Laney up as an example of good build quality in general either. 'Getting away with the minimum' is closer to the mark. To be fair, on the more recent amps they use digital reverb, which is much more reliable.

If Mesa's doing nothing different to Laney reverb wise, then that's even more reason for them to be criticised - Laney can be forgiven for getting away with the minimum at their price point (and the VC30 is still a lot of amp for the money) but at the Lonestar's price point getting away with the minimum isn't acceptable; it's corporate penny pinching and they should be using a better reverb tank.  I wonder what other build aspects of the Lonestar fall into the category of 'getting away with the minimum'?...hmm.

knuckleberryfinn

Voxman said:

If Mesa's doing nothing different to Laney reverb wise, then that's even more reason for them to be criticised - Laney can be forgiven for getting away with the minimum at their price point (and the VC30 is still a lot of amp for the money) but at the Lonestar's price point getting away with the minimum isn't acceptable; it's corporate penny pinching and they should be using a better reverb tank.  I wonder what other build aspects of the Lonestar fall into the category of 'getting away with the minimum'?...hmm.

The TAD tanks are actually cheaper than the Belton/Accutronics ones, though maybe not if you are a bulk-buying amp company. Maybe Mesa don't know about the problem, though I'm sure they've had more warranty claims for faulty reverb tanks since the change in design.

Ché

I had to resolder the connectors in my reverb tank in my old silverface twin. Probably needed to be secured a bit better, mainly in transit.

As it happens the reverb on my Mesa Lonestar Special works intermittently. If I unplug it from the chassis and back in again it works fine.

jpfamps

The TAD tanks are better built: the transducer wire is terminated in the winding to a flexible multistrand cable which is taken to the terminals.

ICBM

Voxman said:

If Mesa's doing nothing different to Laney reverb wise, then that's even more reason for them to be criticised - Laney can be forgiven for getting away with the minimum at their price point (and the VC30 is still a lot of amp for the money) but at the Lonestar's price point getting away with the minimum isn't acceptable; it's corporate penny pinching and they should be using a better reverb tank.  I wonder what other build aspects of the Lonestar fall into the category of 'getting away with the minimum'?...hmm.

I agree, although there isn't much I can think of - it is mainly just the reverb tanks. I also agree Mesa should be criticised for it, but it does start to grate a little how much Laney seem to be allowed to get away with poor build quality, regardless of price. Mesas are far better built in other areas.

Mesa are also seriously overpriced in this country (and others outside North America) due to their distributor adding an excessive markup, so the price difference isn't as much as you would think from the UK retail prices.

ROOG said:

I quite like spring units, but the one fitted to the Jr was never particularly good to my ear even when it did work!  

Part of the problem isn't the tank, it's the drive and return circuitry, which is solid-state and not that good, Changing the tank won't cure that.

ThePrettyDamned said:

Is there any advantage to having a spring, amp reverb rather than a pedal? Or even a digital reverb?

Yes. The spring picks up vibration from the speakers, which is a subtle form of feedback and adds complexity to the reverb sound. (It can actually cause out-of-control feedback if the reverb return gain is too high in fact.)

Ché said:

As it happens the reverb on my Mesa Lonestar Special works intermittently. If I unplug it from the chassis and back in again it works fine.

Sounds like a problem with the phono plugs rather than the tank. This is also quite common, not just on Mesas! Try squeezing the two parts of the plug out of round *very* slightly - carefully with a pair of pliers - they will often make a better contact.