TS-808 - do they actually *sell* for this price?

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

^ I dunno. Most of the slightly tweaked boutique TS pedals normally seem to have features which make them work better as a standalone OD? Things like flatter mids, less of a bass cut etc. To me that makes them work less well as a boost.

I wouldn't know, I never use them as a boost - only ever as actual overdrive into a clean amp, or as "more dirt" into an overdriven one. Which may explain why I am always so sceptical about posh TS derivatives… they still don't sound great into a clean amp, certainly not "amp like" as usually claimed, and into a dirty amp you lose any subtlety they might have. I've never actually heard one that sounds better than a TS-9 or a Boss SD-1 for that.

Yeah ) I'm always a bit wary of the tweaked TSes as well. I know if you change a component it can pretty radically change the overall tone, but if you know you don't like a TS maybe a pedal which is more removed from the general TS design would be a better idea.

Only reason I don't use an Ibanez or Maxon TS is the reason you posted up above- they're crazy dear and you can get the same thing for a lot less from other manufacturers.

ThePrettyDamned

Dominic said:

Anything ,any single commodity is worth what somebody will pay for it - economics fact -nothing peculiar to music about that

 ..............as for music and tubescreamers or Klon Centaurs its quite ridiculous that hyperbole and mystique make people so irrational 

......if you add in a bit of snake oil and reverance to any legendary player that may have been an endorsee ( paid or not) and you have the perfect recipe for good old fashioned marketing inflating true value .

 Back on planet Earth and in the back of a social club bar with your drummer hard up against your left elbow and bassist with his cab facing slightly in the wrong direction neither the public nor the player would be able to tell the difference between any two remotely similar amps or pedals within the mix ...........sad but true .....in fact most audience wouldn't even know the sound difference between a guitar and a ukelele for that matter ..........maybe a bit different in the studio !

 A year ago Guitar did a blind testing of about 10 boutique amps played by experienced players from behind a screen and the results were very illuminating - there were a few bog standard ringers amongst them and if I remember correct most people chose the meat and potatoes hot rod deluxe as thebest sounding "boutique " amp !!

I think they were going against a line 6 valve modelling amp, which did okay but was identifiable, and a fender Hot Rod Deville, which was generally the preferred amp.  

But yes, actually a useful article from them.

StefB

One for £800 here, but you do get free postage so not all bad - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ibanez-Tube-Screamer-TS-808-Original-Rare-Boxed-Klon-Collectors-R-Logo-/131369678329?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1e963e35f9

johnhe

I once owned an original TS808 and it was by a long, long way the best sounding tubescreamer I ever heard. And I've owned a lot of reissue tubescreamers and clones. After some time I realised that I was so scared of damaging it, and reducing its value, that I wasn't actually using it. So I sold it. Now, the guy who got it paid a fair price in my opinion. It was a lot of money, but here's the thing: was he really stupid to pay all that money? The pedal is almost certainly worth more now than when he bought it. So he could sell it and, at worst, it wouldn't cost him a penny to have owned and enjoyed one of the world's finest, most iconic overdrive pedals. Was it really much better than a Joyo? Certainly not to a beginner who wouldn't hear the difference. And without doubt, no one in the audience would hear the difference. But I could hear the difference. So I enjoyed it, and sold it for more than I paid for it. The current owner loves it and could sell it for more than he paid for it. What's not to love about that arrangement? Edit: how the heck do you put new paragraphs in posts on this site?????

Voxman

@johnhe - Just being devils advovate here, but if it was the best overdrive pedal you've heard by a long long way, then anyone and any audience should be able to hear some difference. If they can't then there can't be that much difference.

Having said that, most people and most audiences can't hear any difference between a valve amp and a modeling amp...you've no idea the number of times at a gig that even valveheads thought my Valvetronix was an AC30..they saw what looked like an AC30, saw the Vox badge...their brains made the connection ...and their ears heard an AC30.

So, its probably only an experienced connoisseur playing in a confined familiar space at home or in a small club that's going to appreciate the difference. Kind of like a fine wine where most of the population couldn't tell the difference between say a £20 good supermarket claret and a £1,000 vintage claret.  And if a vintage TS808/vintage claret gives real pleasure to someone that really appreciates it and can afford it, it's always nice to have something a bit special. But...whether it's really that special or whether it's psychological, kind of like the emperors new clothes, is perhaps debatable & in the ear of the beholder...or is it?

The only way of really determining whether there's a genuine identifiable aural difference is to undertake a complete independent blind (or in this case ear) test. Now, if there were nine decent TS clones lined up plus your TS808, and you couldn't see that little green box, do you really think you could spot that TS808 using only your ears?  You see I'm very dubious. Why? Well, consider the following true event: -

On a tv game/challenge show programme some years back there was a music store owner who was a bass expert and an experienced session player.  He boasted that he could identify 10 different bass guitars played through the same amp just by their distinctive tone, and he'd done this repeatedly in his store. So, they brought all his 10 selected bass guitars in, and someone played these through the same amp chosen by him, behind a screen. I can't recall the program name, but I don't think he got one right. He was totally bemused and couldn't understand it, saying they sounded so different in his store. The truth is that without the additional visual and touch connection, he actually couldn't determine which bass was which using only his ears.

So whilst I'm sure you genuinely perceived your TS808 was the best sounding overdrive you've ever heard, I strongly suspect that it was in a large part psychsematic/placebo effect and that if you were the contestant in a blind test you wouldn't be able to hear your pedals difference played by someone else, compared with nine others.

We all think we can hear the difference between certain similar gear, and we like to think what we hear on 'vintage' gear justifies the cost differential. E.g. a custom shop strat vs a vintage 1954 strat, a new Marshall jcm800 reissue vs a vintage jcm800 Marshall, or a 1959 LP Standard vs a Custom Shop '59 LP Standard.  But in reality in a true blind test, it's a very rare person who can...and even then it can sometimes be a little more luck than judgement. 

So, are these pedals worth £800+ purely for their tone? I really don't think so.  

johnhe

Hi Voxman, good post. I didn't say it was the best pedal I'd ever owned - just the best tubescreamer. I didn't pay anywhere near the going rate for the pedal - I found it in a pawn shop. Personally, I don't see see myself paying the street price for a TS808, but then again, I would never pay for a '65 Deluxe Reverb or an original '62 strat. But I'm not saying there isn't a difference. The law of diminishing returns means that the difference become very, very small as the price goes up. But I am very confident that my 808 was better than any other reissue tubescreamer I'd ever played. Whether that is worth £1, £10 or £100 more than a Joyo is for everyone to make their own mind up on. I think my point was more that paying a "ludicrous" price for a vintage piece of gear isn't such a daft thing to do if you end up owning something which is worth more than you paid.

Voxman

johnhe said:

Hi Voxman, good post. I didn't say it was the best pedal I'd ever owned - just the best tubescreamer. I didn't pay anywhere near the going rate for the pedal - I found it in a pawn shop. Personally, I don't see see myself paying the street price for a TS808, but then again, I would never pay for a '65 Deluxe Reverb or an original '62 strat. But I'm not saying there isn't a difference. The law of diminishing returns means that the difference become very, very small as the price goes up. But I am very confident that my 808 was better than any other reissue tubescreamer I'd ever played. Whether that is worth £1, £10 or £100 more than a Joyo is for everyone to make their own mind up on. I think my point was more that paying a "ludicrous" price for a vintage piece of gear isn't such a daft thing to do if you end up owning something which is worth more than you paid.

Sure, I can definitely see that from an investment perspective, which is why I focussed purely on the audible difference.  I did mention best 'overdrive' pedal (which is what a TS is of course) rather than best pedal, as the term 'tubescreamer' was coined by Ibanez - so I suppose tubescreamer is a 'trademark', bit like the term 'Hoover' which has now become a household term for any vacuum cleaner.  (We have a Dyson, but we still refer to it as the 'hoover'!) Just shows the powerful influence that this little green box had on guitarists and manufacturers, no question!