Amplifier Mistake (Blackstar)

Jalapeno

thomasross20 said:

Yep. I toyed with the idea of keeping the 260 but it's just not going to happen, long-term. 

See how much a local amptech/cab company would charge to chop the combo into head + cab(s) - that way you keep your sound, and don't have to sell the amp for a lot less than you paid for it.

ICBM

RaymondLin said:

Someone on TGP gigged with his Atma at 5w in a room of 60+ people, no PA. Its a louder amp than the number suggests.

On paper, 35w is 3db louder max.

35W is 8.5dB louder than 5W. That's a lot.

The plain power/dB figures don't always reflect reality though - the type of amp, the speaker sensitivity and the the sort of sound you want can all be more important.

You could easily find that a 5W valve amp used purely for a midrange overdriven lead sound could be plenty, and a 65W solid-state amp used for a full-range completely clean sound which has to take heavy external distortion and effects could be not enough, *at the same final volume*. I'm using those two examples because I've personally had both! Admittedly with very different bands.

There's no useful answer to the "how much power do you need" question without knowing that sort of thing.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM;446260" said:

RaymondLin said:

Someone on TGP gigged with his Atma at 5w in a room of 60+ people, no PA. Its a louder amp than the number suggests.





On paper, 35w is 3db louder max.





35W is 8.5dB louder than 5W. That's a lot.

The plain power/dB figures don't always reflect reality though - the type of amp, the speaker sensitivity and the the sort of sound you want can all be more important.

You could easily find that a 5W valve amp used purely for a midrange overdriven lead sound could be plenty, and a 65W solid-state amp used for a full-range completely clean sound which has to take heavy external distortion and effects could be not enough, *at the same final volume*. I'm using those two examples because I've personally had both! Admittedly with very different bands.

There's no useful answer to the "how much power do you need" question without knowing that sort of thing.

Yes there is.

120 crushing valve watts. Minimum.

paulmapp8306

Its only about headroom, not watts.

A little theory - though Im sure IC will put me absolutely correct.

Basically, every time you double the power, your upping the signal strength by 3db, As db is a logarithmic scale, if you up the power by a factor of 10, your upping the the signal by 10db..  So, a 35W amp is roughly 3db more powerful than an 18W amp - and a 50W amp is roughly 10db ore powerfull than a 5W amp.

The human ear though, doesnt determine volume in a linear way.  The most accepted figure is 10db more to get double the volume.

Using that as a baseline (and all other things being the same - such as speakers, and the way the ratings were tested) a 50W amp is twice as loud as a 5W amp.  The problems come in a number of ways.  Firstly its not just about volume - its about headroom.  The power rating may, or may not be with a clean signal. Things start to compress and eventually clip in different ways too - so if you want a loud CLEAN sound you need more power than if your after a loud breaking up sound.  You need to work out at this point whether you need untra clean, or a more edge of breakup  clean - as this will help determine the ideal power for your amp.  Too much power if your after power amp crunch and it will be stupidly loud before you get that.  Too little power if you want crystal clean and it wont be loud enough before if starts to clip.

To top this off, you have to take into account speaker sensitivity  A given speaker has a rating in db, that determines how much the speaker moves for a given 1W of power.  These can vary significantly.  For guitar speakers, its fair to say the most economical are rated around 100-101db, but the least somewhere around 96db.  Not a lot on the face of it - however load the speakers with different amps:

A 20W amp into a 100db rated speaker will provide roughly the same output as a 40W amp into a 97db rated speaker.  Put a little 5W amp into an inefficient speaker and its not going to be loud enough to gig.  Put the same amp into a really efficient speaker and it may even be too loud.

If you have the wedge (given you last few purchases Id say you do - or at least should TRY to in order to justify those guitars properly) Id SERIOUSLY give the badgers and the Bognor a try.  Stick either of the 18w amps into a G12H and there going to be more than loud enough Id wager.   If not then the extra 3db from the 3-0/35 watt badgers will DEFINATELY be enough in your average pub venue.  Anywhere bigger and your going to be micing up anyway.

paulmapp8306

Oh - then you have the differences between VALE amps and Solid STATE amps.  Again IC is definitely the one to chip in/put me right here, but again on a basic level:

When a valve amp reaches its rated maximum output it begines to compress.  Well actually before it reaches its maximum really.  When it does so it rounds out - warms - the sound.  At its maximum clean output you get this lovely chiming/warm sound.  As you push the amp further it exceeds its maximum CLEAN rated output and actually puts out more power - and it starts to clip/crunch giving that on the edge tone.  Eventually if saturates and gives your full on power amp distortion.  Its VERY Musical, and af full tilt an amp may be putting as much as 50% (IC?) more than its rated output.  So that little 18W amp might be actually giving around 25W or so.

A solid State amp sounds HORRIBLE when it clipps - exceeds or actually reaches - its maximum output.  As a result you need to stay well clear of its maximum.  Popular wisdom suggests at least 3db below its rated maximum to allow for transient spikes in your playing, and some would argue up to 6db is sensible.

So from my first post (dbs and all) - if were taking absolutely clean, a SS amp would need to be rated 2-3 times as much as a valve equivalent for roughly the same volume output (remember 3db is double power, and 6db is 4x the power).  So to get a similar clean output as an 18w valve amp, you'd need anywhere between 35w and 70w from your SS equivalent (depending on how the manufacturer measured the output in the first place).    If your talking edge of breakup tones - youd need even more as the velve amp may well be exceeding its rated output to achieve those.

You can see why a 65w solid state amp, loaded with a not too great generic speaker is actually quieter than a quality 15W valve amp loaded with an efficient speaker.

Misty

Head and Cab has to be the answer. I made the change a few years ago and haven't regretted it. 

Lev

Lugging heavy gear kinda comes with the territory when you play live. If it's not the guitar amp, it'll be PA equipment, powered monitors etc. When I was gigging we knew that some items were a 2 man lift so no one was left lugging anything heavy up flights of stairs on their own.

Without meaning to sound flippant couldn't you ask one of your band mates for a hand? Especially if you really like the sound you are getting from the amp.

guitarfishbay

Thing is people say 3db and I wonder if people read it as 'negligible'.  

In my experience 3db is not negligible, while it isn't doubling it is definitely noticeable, so it depends where the start point is.

But if you want lightweight gear you may have to compromise on something (unless you prefer the sound of lower wattage, not everyone wants/needs a 'big' sound).

impmann

PAs do not have to be heavy any more.

For example - we are using these tops with the matching subs...

http://www.thomann.de/gb/ev_zxa190b.htm

I can carry one of these 800w tops in each hand...

ICBM

@paulmapp8306 ;- all that is correct .

paulmapp8306 said:

You can see why a 65w solid state amp, loaded with a not too great generic speaker is actually quieter than a quality 15W valve amp loaded with an efficient speaker.

Interesting you should pick that example, because that's exactly what I found when I used my Marshall Studio 15 - with original-version V30 - in a band where the other guitarist had a 65W solid-state Dean Markley amp, which wasn't even bad, for its day... the Marshall blew it off the stage.

thomasross20

Can I just ask (again?) - is it for both solid-state AND valve amps, the fact that a boost will only work on a distorted channel if in the FX loop? Why wont it work if put in front of the amp... after all the clean channel can get boosted and I can turn the volume up/down with the pot, so why is it not able to increase it with the boost pedal?
If ICBM already answered that earlier I'll go back and check the answer... sorry, overloaded with work right now

Nomad

thomasross20 said:

Can I just ask (again?) - is it for both solid-state AND valve amps, the fact that a boost will only work on a distorted channel if in the FX loop? Why wont it work if put in front of the amp... after all the clean channel can get boosted and I can turn the volume up/down with the pot, so why is it not able to increase it with the boost pedal?

You can't boost the volume of a distorted input channel by shoving a bigger signal into it because it's already running at max volume (regardless of what the amp's master volume is set to). If you want to make the amp's distorted input channel louder, you either turn up the master volume, or put a booster (or volume pedal, etc) into the effects loop - after the distorted channel.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother with all this unless the distorted amp channel sound was far superior to anything that could be acheived before the amp. It's far less hassle to play into a clean amp and control sounds and volume with pedals before the amp's input.

 

RaymondLin

ICBM said:

RaymondLin said:

Someone on TGP gigged with his Atma at 5w in a room of 60+ people, no PA. Its a louder amp than the number suggests.

On paper, 35w is 3db louder max.

35W is 8.5dB louder than 5W. That's a lot.

The plain power/dB figures don't always reflect reality though - the type of amp, the speaker sensitivity and the the sort of sound you want can all be more important.

You could easily find that a 5W valve amp used purely for a midrange overdriven lead sound could be plenty, and a 65W solid-state amp used for a full-range completely clean sound which has to take heavy external distortion and effects could be not enough, *at the same final volume*. I'm using those two examples because I've personally had both! Admittedly with very different bands.

There's no useful answer to the "how much power do you need" question without knowing that sort of thing.

I meant that the Badger is only 3db louder than the Atma, not 35w is 3db louder than 5w.

The Atma can do 18w so its only 17W difference to the Badger, hence 3db.

ThePrettyDamned

thomasross20;446415" said:

Can I just ask (again?) - is it for both solid-state AND valve amps, the fact that a boost will only work on a distorted channel if in the FX loop? Why wont it work if put in front of the amp... after all the clean channel can get boosted and I can turn the volume up/down with the pot, so why is it not able to increase it with the boost pedal?

If ICBM already answered that earlier I'll go back and check the answer... sorry, overloaded with work right now

First, it's important to clarify that an amp has two parts - preamp and power amp.

If a pedal goes in front, it's hitting the preamp.

If the preamp is distorting, boosting the signal won't change volume - it will increase distortion. It can't go any louder, hence distorting.

If you have a distorted preamp, but a clean power amp, putting a boost in the effects loop (ie after the distorted preamp but before the power section) you can increase the volume by hitting it on.

If the power amp is distorted, you can't (to my knowledge) really raise the volume regardless of where you put a boost.

Solid state amps tend not to distort the output stage - if it does, it usually sounds bad. So either a high headroom valve amp with a dirty preamp or a high headroom solid state amp with dirty preamp needs boosting via effects loop. Broadly speaking.

If you're using a clean preamp and have a distortion pedal for distortion, putting a boost before the pedal will increase the distortion, putting it after will boost volume - assuming the amp preamp can handle a higher signal without distorting, at which point it won't go louder, just more distorted.

I hope that makes sense!

NPP

on the distortion question, couldn't you set your distorted amp channel to the volume and distortion you need for your lead sound, and then use a pedal, with its volume turned down and a bit of drive dialled in, for your rhythm sound? 

ICBM

NPP said:

on the distortion question, couldn't you set your distorted amp channel to the volume and distortion you need for your lead sound, and then use a pedal, with its volume turned down and a bit of drive dialled in, for your rhythm sound? 

Not really, because if the amp is still on a distortion setting, lowering the input volume will reduce the amount of distortion not the volume - unless it goes so far that the amp cleans up completely, but that's usually a long way down.

RaymondLin said:

I meant that the Badger is only 3db louder than the Atma, not 35w is 3db louder than 5w.

The Atma can do 18w so its only 17W difference to the Badger, hence 3db.

Ah right, I read that as being that the Atma is 5W, sorry!

NPP

ICBM said:

NPP said:

on the distortion question, couldn't you set your distorted amp channel to the volume and distortion you need for your lead sound, and then use a pedal, with its volume turned down and a bit of drive dialled in, for your rhythm sound? 

Not really, because if the amp is still on a distortion setting, lowering the input volume will reduce the amount of distortion not the volume - unless it goes so far that the amp cleans up completely, but that's usually a long way down.

that's why I was suggesting to use a drive pedal, so as to add the drive lost through turning down the volume back in if required. I agree that it wouldn't be an ideal solution anyway ...

ThePrettyDamned

As it's a modeller, couldn't you just set it to have like 4 channels? Clean, crunch, heavy crunch, lead - with associated volumes?

RaymondLin

ICBM said:

 

RaymondLin said:

I meant that the Badger is only 3db louder than the Atma, not 35w is 3db louder than 5w.

The Atma can do 18w so its only 17W difference to the Badger, hence 3db.

Ah right, I read that as being that the Atma is 5W, sorry!

It can do 1W, 5W and 18W.

 

I have never used mine in 18W...

John_P

ThePrettyDamned said:

As it's a modeller, couldn't you just set it to have like 4 channels? Clean, crunch, heavy crunch, lead - with associated volumes?

This!!

I thought that was the main point of the getting that amp instead a mpore conventional valve amp.

I'm struggling to understand why anyone would buy an amp designed to use patches wouldn't take advantage of that feature.

Regarding the weight - as I said earlier on, if you have no medical issue then it's already fairly light weight - we're only talking in the region of 2 or 3 guitars.  I was thinking about this situation last night at rehearsal - my baby hughes and kettner that I use to rehearse is 19kg and I would hate to be in a position where something heavier than that causes pain.

It sounds like you do have a medical condition and need to see a Doctor and in the meantime ask the other guys to help out.     Can you cope with the weight of a guitar for a couple of hours on stage?  Just a thinking it might be worth checking out a decent strap before you start gigging.