Good 88 key controller/keyboard?

axisus

I'd like to get an 88 key controller, preferably USB powered and preferably with semi-weighted keys. Anyone know of anything that fits the bill?

Nomad

No suggestions, I'm afraid, but is there any particular reason you want 88 keys semi-weighted rather than piano weighted?

Fretwired

I have an M-Audio Keystation 88 and Tonyteech of this parish [who is also a piano teacher] recently bought one. Not a bad price.

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/keyboards/detail.asp?stock=14100114453132&gclid=Cj0KEQiAn9-kBRDloNeUw7Pe_YwBEiQA4HXMU7RXUKN2shhmO42wbnNMiNHWrCdjIut5v9OZcBd7tfYaAg9v8P8HAQ

axisus

Nomad said:

No suggestions, I'm afraid, but is there any particular reason you want 88 keys semi-weighted rather than piano weighted?

I quite like the feel, and they are usually cheaper as well! I actually have an 88 key fully weighted controller in my loft already (Fatar 90+) but it weighs a ton, and I basically want something cheap and easy to move, to slide under the table at work and pull out for a bit of lunchtime practice.

axisus

Fretwired said:

I have an M-Audio Keystation 88 and Tonyteech of this parish [who is also a piano teacher] recently bought one. Not a bad price.

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/keyboards/detail.asp?stock=14100114453132&gclid=Cj0KEQiAn9-kBRDloNeUw7Pe_YwBEiQA4HXMU7RXUKN2shhmO42wbnNMiNHWrCdjIut5v9OZcBd7tfYaAg9v8P8HAQ

That looks like just the right sort of thing! Thanks!

strumjoughlamps

Fretwired said:

I have an M-Audio Keystation 88 and Tonyteech of this parish [who is also a piano teacher] recently bought one. Not a bad price.

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/keyboards/detail.asp?stock=14100114453132&gclid=Cj0KEQiAn9-kBRDloNeUw7Pe_YwBEiQA4HXMU7RXUKN2shhmO42wbnNMiNHWrCdjIut5v9OZcBd7tfYaAg9v8P8HAQ

I have the 61 key version and find it does the job nicely for computer based recording, I also use one of these http://www.amazon.co.uk/M-Audio-SP-2-Piano-Sustain-Pedal/dp/B00063678K and the build quality for such a cheap price is excellent, I really rate M-Audio stuff.

Nomad

I got the 49-key version from Maplin yesterday for using with my DAW. I wanted something fairly small that I can leave next to the computer and lift onto my lap when I want to try ideas for notes and sounds. I did consider one of the boards with mini keys, but they were either disgusting or didn't have enough octaves (need a 4 octave board).

The 49-key version is described as having "full-size velocity-sensitive keys with natural piano feel", while the 88 also has "semi-weighted" in the description. I don't know how much difference there is, but I note that reviews of the 88 on Amazon don't liken it to a piano, and I can say for sure that the 49 is nothing like a piano other than the superficial visual similarity of having black and white keys. It has ZERO "piano feel". They keys are a bit easy to press at first, which can lead to the odd fluffed note, and then become a bit springy and spongy. When held down, there's a vague feeling that the keys are trying to fight back. With a real piano, it's the opposite - some resistance at first, with less likelihood of fluffed notes, and then easier to keep held down.

I had a good play around with it last night as a controller board into the DAW, running the VB3 virtual Hammond VST. As an organ or synth keyboard, it's a bit more passable - compared to my tonewheel Hammond, it's still a bit easy to catch a key inadvertently, and it generally feels indistinct when playing a series of quick notes. On the plus side, it's quite easy to do glissandos with the fingers, and Hammond-style palm glissandos are okay. (I have a 76-key MIDI controller that is terrible for palm glissandos). The mod and pitch wheels feel pretty decent, and I was able to map the mod wheel to the Leslie switching using MIDI Learn in VB3. I also mapped the volume slider to the VB3 expression pedal. Those, and telling the DAW to do everything at max velocity (to override the velocity sensitive keyboard and thus behave like an organ), gave a pretty reasonable rendition of what it's like to play a Hammond on a low budget (VB3 is excellent value at around 50 EUR - superb deal if you need very good Hammond sounds and can dispense with the full Hammond console organ physical interface). One thing the Keystation 49 doesn't do is keyboard splits - the whole board goes out on one channel, so no option to do double manual stuff. Also no velocity scaling or the like (hence having to override in the DAW).

Getting it working was no problem on my Win7 system - just plug it in, let Windows install the driver, fire up the DAW and add it to the list of input devices. What's perhaps more interesting is the 'bundled' software. It's not bundled, but has to be downloaded (need to register on the M-Audio web site to get your account-specific serial numbers). The software is a DAW called Ableton Live 9 (which I've never used and don't plan to), a piano virtual instrument called Eighty Eight, which is apparently a bunch of samples from a Steinway grand (16 velocities, not sure if it's individual keys), and some other VST instrument thing which is NOT free. I downloaded the free bits of the bundle and will try out the piano VST later.

Overall, it's cheap and cheerful. The supposed 'piano feel' is 100% bullshit. As a synth keyboard to play, I wouldn't say it's the best I've tried - it's passable provided care is taken with fingering to avoid catching keys you don't want to sound. As a tool for interfacing to a DAW to aid composition, it's fine for my needs - not too big, 4 octaves, and light enough to sit on the lap. If the piano VST turns out to be decent ($150 retail), I think that would amount to an unexpected bonus even though I'm not especially after a piano VST (still have the option to sequence manually in piano roll, so the dreadful 'piano' keyboard isn't a negative from that perspective).

axisus

I'm hoping the 88 has a better action than that. I'm not looking for a piano feel, just something with a bit of resistance.

strumjoughlamps

axisus said:

I'm hoping the 88 has a better action than that. I'm not looking for a piano feel, just something with a bit of resistance.

in m audio then you maybe want to be looking at the Oxygen and not the Keystation as the Oxygen has graded hammer keys

axisus

strumjoughlamps said:

axisus said:

I'm hoping the 88 has a better action than that. I'm not looking for a piano feel, just something with a bit of resistance.

in m audio then you maybe want to be looking at the Oxygen and not the Keystation as the Oxygen has graded hammer keys

Nice, but it is WAY more expensive, and probably a lot heavier as well, so not ideal for my purposes on either front.

Fretwired

I have the 88 and a small Oxygen which I use as a controller. The keyboard feel seems identical to me. I have no problems playing the 88 and Tonyteech is a semi-pro piano player and piono teacher who has a real piano at home and he thinks the 88 is a good keyboard. Why not PM him?

strumjoughlamps

Fretwired said:

I have the 88 and a small Oxygen which I use as a controller. The keyboard feel seems identical to me. I have no problems playing the 88 and Tonyteech is a semi-pro piano player and piono teacher who has a real piano at home and he thinks the 88 is a good keyboard. Why not PM him?

the smaller Oxygen range are just velocity sensitive like the Keystations, its only the 88 that is graded hammer.

joeyowen

I used a keystation 88 for a few years and it was great, it did exactly what I needed it

Sold it when I got an electric piano, I did miss the weighted keys

Nomad

Just been playing with the Eighty Eight Ensemble software. Short version: definite thumbs up.

Only tried the full piano sound so far (there are various pianos and some combination piano-plus-other-sound patches). The Grand Piano A Complete is the one with 16 velocity levels, and it sounds very good, with a nice change in note timbre as you hit the keys harder. I'm not sure if it has 16 sounds for every note, but if there is any frequency stretching/compressing, it's not obvious to me so far. (There are 1311 individual files in the samples folder but it's hard to make sense of what they represent - there are note names and numbers, but some of the numbers are higher than the 127 max velocity for a MIDI note).

It also has release samples, so you get the characteristic noises when you take your fingers off the keys. Also has pedal noise, where you get the clunk when the pedal is pressed and released. Both of these make the overall piano experience more convincing.

One thing it doesn't have is string resonance. If you press the sustain pedal and hit a note, only that note sounds - there is no sympathetic vibration of other strings. Same thing with the pedal up if you gently press some keys and hold them down so they're silent - whack another note, and the held notes don't resonate. I like to use the sustain pedal and, for me, it's a fundamental part of what makes my acoustic piano sound the way it does (it positively sings when the sustain pedal is down).

While I would knock off a point for the lack of string resonance, I think the package is very good aside from that. The sounds are very clean and the timbre over the dynamic range sounds right to this amateur (and frankly shit) piano player). For practice and accompaniment, it's excellent, and it's good enough for some solo pieces. As "the piano" in my DAW, it's also fine (I don't really use piano in my compositions, so as I said earlier, this is something of a bonus). About the only thing I think it falls short of would be solo performance where the sustain pedal is a feature. To put it another way, I've tinkered with a few digital pianos in music shops, and this is easily as good as any of those that don't have string resonance.

I'm not sure what other options there are at around $150 (say, 80-100 quid), so maybe there is something that matches the dynamics and sound quality and has the all-important string resonance. For the price of the 49-key board, 70 quid, I'd say the software alone for that price would be a good deal. That and the keyboard together, it's a bargain.

I'm off to explore the other patches - I noticed that there's a folder called "Suitcase Samples", and I'm wondering if that's a Rhodes.

Fretwired

Nomad said:

I'm off to explore the other patches - I noticed that there's a folder called "Suitcase Samples", and I'm wondering if that's a Rhodes.

It is .. enjoy.

Nomad

Fretwired said:

Nomad said:

I'm off to explore the other patches - I noticed that there's a folder called "Suitcase Samples", and I'm wondering if that's a Rhodes.

It is .. enjoy.

Can't find a patch that suggest a Rhodes, though, and nothing is coming up in Google.

Fretwired

Nomad said:

Fretwired said:

Nomad said:

I'm off to explore the other patches - I noticed that there's a folder called "Suitcase Samples", and I'm wondering if that's a Rhodes.

It is .. enjoy.

Can't find a patch that suggest a Rhodes, though, and nothing is coming up in Google.

I got a copy of the SONiVOX software which was a Steinway with some split pads and stuff and a Fender Rhodes - I'll dig the disk out to find the author.

EDIT

Found it .. Suitcase Electric Piano .. http://sonivoxmi.com/products/details/suitcase-electric-piano