Multi track recording while we practise.

Teacherphil

Hi All, I have a small studio set up in my back bedroom / man cave. PC , presonus studio one, presonus USB interface with 2 versatile inputs, presonus condensor Mic, Vox AC30, Gibson SG, tc nova system, cheap bass amp, cheap bass, Roland td3 drums, technics amp, mission speakers.
For someone messing about on his own it's perfect and I'm happy with the results but I want to record 4 tracks simultaneously with my band whilst rehearsing. I can't get the hang of the midi drum thing so I'm just using audio out.
My question is this. What's the easiest and cheapest way to record 4 live tracks starting with the equipment I've got.
Buying a 4 input interface?
Is there a mixer that does that instead?
Mic up guitar and bass splitting with DI boxes, drums straight in, vocals later?
Guitar and bass through DI boxes then straight into the interface along with drums, vocals later?

Any advise would be appreciated.
Thanks
Phil

ecc83

The Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6 has 2 excellent mic inputs and two further line inputs so that would give you 4 tracks but I don't thinks that copes with all the gear you have?

One solution would be the KA6 plus a small mixer to give 2 more mic inputs plus line ins (for drums etc) These mixer sources would be "panned" into the second pair of tracks..Not ideal but workable.

But! Tascam have a new model out that replaces the excellent US1800 so the latter is being heavily discounted atmo'. 8 mic inputs and GAKs how many line ins, the 1800 fairly bristles with connectivity!

Of course you will have to build up the extra mic/stand/cable stock over time

spark240

I had a bit of trouble setting up my drum kit with S1 but I got there, it's quite do able. Which Presonus interface do you have now?

steamabacus

A left-field suggestion - what about something like the Zoom H6? This would allow you to record 4 tracks separately (expandable with an adapter to 6) plus stereo L/R mic. Once recorded, upload the tracks to your computer via usb.

This would give you the flexability to record anywhere and bring the recordings back to your studio to mix/work on.

PolarityMan

What are you hoping to get out of the multi-track recording? If you're looking for demo quality material you probably need more than 4 mics to do it without overdubs, I'd really use a minimum of 4 mics on the drums alone to make it worthwhile. 

I have done scratch quality recordings with only 2 mics on drums and I get more mileage out of bassdrum and single overhead than 2 overheads but even that is half your tracks gone already and a serious compromise on the drum sound.

Plus everything is going to have so much drum bleed in it that you're not going to get the mixing freedom you imagine anyway.

If its just for consumption within the band then I'd probably drop the requirement for 4 tracks and just use a stereo portable recorded like a zoom to minimize setup issues and just pay attention to where you position your sources in the room.

Teacherphil

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like I'm on the right lines but not really after anything rackmounted as i

spark240;460271" said:

I had a bit of trouble setting up my drum kit with S1 but I got there, it's quite do able.



Which Presonus interface do you have now?

Presonus audiobox usb. The interface came bundled with software, Mic, headphones

Teacherphil

PolarityMan;460299" said:

What are you hoping to get out of the multi-track recording? If you're looking for demo quality material you probably need more than 4 mics to do it without overdubs, I'd really use a minimum of 4 mics on the drums alone to make it worthwhile. 

I have done scratch quality recordings with only 2 mics on drums and I get more mileage out of bassdrum and single overhead than 2 overheads but even that is half your tracks gone already and a serious compromise on the drum sound.




Plus everything is going to have so much drum bleed in it that you're not going to get the mixing freedom you imagine anyway.



If its just for consumption within the band then I'd probably drop the requirement for 4 tracks and just use a stereo portable recorded like a zoom to minimize setup issues and just pay attention to where you position your sources in the room.

I've tried using the instrument Mic I have in different places around the room but it sounds terrible. As a band we struggle with time to get together so I want to be able to record 4 tracks so I can spend some time playing about with them. Nothing too polished but something for me to be able to mess about with by myself, doubling up, adding effects, basic mastering.

Teacherphil

Teacherphil;460302" said:

Thanks for the reply. It sounds like I'm on the right lines but not really after anything rackmounted as i[quote="spark240;460271"]I had a bit of trouble setting up my drum kit with S1 but I got there, it's quite do able.



Which Presonus interface do you have now?

Presonus audiobox usb. The interface came bundled with software, Mic, headphones
[/quote]

The drums were unresponsive and suffering from some lag. I am more than happy with the Roland drum sounds so line out or audio out is perfect for me. Also the simpler the better, we only have limited practise time and I want everything to work first time every time. Not my experience of midi.

Teacherphil

steamabacus;460285" said:

A left-field suggestion - what about something like the Zoom H6? This would allow you to record 4 tracks separately (expandable with an adapter to 6) plus stereo L/R mic. Once recorded, upload the tracks to your computer via usb.



This would give you the flexability to record anywhere and bring the recordings back to your studio to mix/work on.

I did almost buy the zoom R8 before I opted for the studio one bundle. I assume this works the same way.

steamabacus

Teacherphil said:

steamabacus;460285" said:

A left-field suggestion - what about something like the Zoom H6? This would allow you to record 4 tracks separately (expandable with an adapter to 6) plus stereo L/R mic. Once recorded, upload the tracks to your computer via usb.



This would give you the flexability to record anywhere and bring the recordings back to your studio to mix/work on.

I did almost buy the zoom R8 before I opted for the studio one bundle. I assume this works the same way.

Just looked at the R8 and it only seems to record 2 tracks at a time. The H6 seems a bit more flexable and is considerably smaller/more portable.

Teacherphil

steamabacus;460318" said:

Teacherphil said:

steamabacus;460285" said:A left-field suggestion - what about something like the Zoom H6? This would allow you to record 4 tracks separately (expandable with an adapter to 6) plus stereo L/R mic. Once recorded, upload the tracks to your computer via usb.







This would give you the flexability to record anywhere and bring the recordings back to your studio to mix/work on.

I did almost buy the zoom R8 before I opted for the studio one bundle. I assume this works the same way.





Just looked at the R8 and it only seems to record 2 tracks at a time. The H6 seems a bit more flexable and is considerably smaller/more portable.

Well spotted. The R16 records 8 channels simultaneously, I could use this in a rehearsal room as well.

spark240

Ahh...so you want this kit to be portable? I thought you were recording the band at home !

steamabacus

The R16 also appears to be cheaper than the H6. Not quite as portable, though. Do you already have mics, etc? I suppose you need to sit down and think about what sort of situations you might want to use it in. Some sort of portable multi-track recorder seems like a good option, though.

I do something similar with an improvised ambient project I have. We record live onto an old Yamaha AW4416 (which is a little archaic in digital technology terms but is a reliable 16-track-at-once recorder) and then transfer the tracks to computer for mixing.

Teacherphil

spark240;460334" said:

Ahh...so you want this kit to be portable?



I thought you were recording the band at home !

Not necessarily, the room we practise in now is tiny. It might be nice to be able to take something to a practise room with me but it wasn't originally what I was thinking about. The PC studio thing works well and without any fuss so that's the route I'd rather go down.
I have some kit and use it in a limited way but I'm a novice when it comes to any recording. I realise I have to use DI boxes to split the instrument signals between the amps and recording device. Would you Mic up the amps or go straight into the interface?

steamabacus

Teacherphil said:

spark240;460334" said:

Ahh...so you want this kit to be portable?



I thought you were recording the band at home !

Not necessarily, the room we practise in now is tiny. It might be nice to be able to take something to a practise room with me but it wasn't originally what I was thinking about. The PC studio thing works well and without any fuss so that's the route I'd rather go down.
I have some kit and use it in a limited way but I'm a novice when it comes to any recording. I realise I have to use DI boxes to split the instrument signals between the amps and recording device. Would you Mic up the amps or go straight into the interface?

I wouldn't bother with mic'ing amps in a small room (unless it was a skill you particularly want to gain experience with), especially if time is precious. Depending on whether you get your drive sounds from the amps or purely from pedals, you have a couple of options. The first choice, I'd say, is do you want to use a 'speaker emulated' DI (quicker, simpler) or do you want to use modelled guitar cab impulse reponses (the consensus is these sound better but it's more work at the mixing stage).

There are three places you could take a DI feed from ...
1) After the guitar effects, before the amp input. Obviously, this would not have any eq or drive provided by the amp.
2) From the amp's 'line out' (assumining it has one). This would give you the amp's pre-amp tone. Some amps have a 'speaker emulated' DI out which is ideal for an easy life.
3) Between the amp's speaker out and the speaker. Obviously, the speaker connection can't be hard wired for this to be an option. You would need a DI box designed to accept a speaker level signal (H&K Red Box or Behringer GI100 can both be used like this). I suspect, at low volume levels on the amps, this method may prove to have quite high background noise.

I suspect, depending on what amps you're using, methods 1 or 2 will have the most hassle-free setup.

With my project, I'm using the amp clean at very low volume. I tap off a DI after my effects boards (in the fx loop after the amp's pre-amp) using either an Award-Session MB10 or JD-10 (which both have speaker emulation) and add a little eq and reverb on the mix.

Teacherphil

There is no line out from the amps so I'll probably put the guitars straight into the DI boxes. For the practise room 6 inputs should be plenty so I was thinking of just upgrading the interface like you said. Probably from fleabay. Thanks for the advice.

ecc83

Been a VERY long time ago but I do recall that practice time went past in a flash with far more **ing about than music done? Especially on licensed premises!

If you need to rig several mics/DIs/cables and setup a recording system YOU better get there 2 hours before the rest of the band!

HNY to all.

Dave.

Teacherphil

Just for information I have found a good way of recording that doesn't interrupt the flow of playing. I bought a tascam us1800, Mic(sm58) straight in, guitar and bass through a couple of DI boxes split into amps and the Mic preamps. I record the midi signal from the drums (Roland td3) but have the drumheadphone out linked up to an amp and speakers. We don't monitor as we play so no latency issues, no click track(tried and failed). As long as we don't play too loud there is no issue with the singer hearing himself. If there is some bleed through the Mic then we just re-record the vocals later. Any doubling of the vocals, guitars can be recorded later on. All the guitar effects are added later as well. Works great every time and most importantly it doesn't make us play differently.
On a different note, the after some experimentation the guitar through a DI box sounds a million times better than straight into the Hiz inputs on the interface. Also plugging the guitar straight into the presonus gives a much better sound than straight into the tascam. Through the DI they both sound the same.
Hope this post helps someone
Phil