Loopers (audio repeaters rather than switchers) technique and HW help please

Teetonetal

So given that my band is having a few problems with getting the bass player, we have been doing some gigs acoustically. It's kind of gone ok, but we are beginning to think that the ideal is maybe just to do our remaining gigs as a duo (me and the singer).

I have a couple of months before the next run of gigs and would like to look at looping. I have the basic digitech one and the singer has an RC-30 which she has leant me. Now as I normally just use a looper to great simple chordal backings for practice it's giving me quite a lot to think about.

The first thing is do all Loopers automatically go straight from recording the 1st pass into the overdub for the 2nd? this doesn't make sense to me. I want to record my 1st pass, get into the groove for the 2nd loop, then record it. 

As most songs require more than 1 chord sequence it seems the looper is best used to create some percusive backing.

Are then any loopers that work like a multi track rather than a stack? eg 1 create an inital 4 pass loop, but then want to remove loops 2&3 but leave 1&4 running.

I've been checking out the ususal suspects (ed Sheeran, KT tunstall, Howie Day etc) and they seem to generally just build, build, build..

anyone got any good tips for thinking about how to create good loops

Is there a no.1 looper? The RC-30 seems ok, but I am not finding it massively intuitive and a worried about remembering all these pedal tap combos on the fly... RC-300 looks huuuuuge...

steamabacus

I've been using a Line6 DL4 for years and more recently I've been using a Digitech JamMan soloXT, so my hands-on (feet on?) experience is with those two.

Lots of questions, I'll go through one at a time.

"The first thing is do all Loopers automatically go straight from recording the 1st pass into the overdub for the 2nd? this doesn't make sense to me. I want to record my 1st pass, get into the groove for the 2nd loop, then record it. "

No they don't. The DL4 has separate footswitches - when recording a loop, if you press 'record' again it will loop but continue recording, if you press 'play' it will loop and stop recording. Both useful in different situations.
With the SoloXT, you have to preset the mode to 'RPD' (record/play/dub) or 'RDP' (record/dub/play) referring to the operation of the single footswitch with multiple presses as you record a loop - the former will loop and stop recording, the latter will loop and continue recording.


"Are then any loopers that work like a multi track rather than a stack? eg 1 create an inital 4 pass loop, but then want to remove loops 2&3 but leave 1&4 running."

Yes. The big boss (RC300?) will do three separate synchronised loops. I think the EHX looper will do two stereo or four mono, with slider volumes like a mini-mixer. The daddy of loopers, though, would appear to be the Pigtronix Infinity which will do multiple different configurations of two stereo loops for both sequential and synchronous loops (and much more, besides).

"anyone got any good tips for thinking about how to create good loops"

My best tip is to make sure you get a 'feel' for the operation of the footswitch - different designs respond differently under the foot (this was very noticable when I moved from the DL4's button switches to the SoloXT's treadle switch). Relaxation is key - it is very common to 'snatch' at the switching and ruin your timing. My big tip is to practice tapping you foot in a relaxed and even way when playing. When looping, 'air tap' your foot in time over the footswitch and, when you want to actually start or finish a loop, just extend that same foot motion a little further so that you hit the switch. Proper footwear can be an issue as well - too thick a sole and you can't really get a feel for what you're doing but I also find socks/bare feet a problem too due to the uneveness of sole of the foot. I like to wear tai chi slippers which seem to have the right balance between stiffness and feel.

Teetonetal

@steamabacus thanks for the tips, some good advise there.

I had a good play with the R-30 last night, I could not find away to change from Roecord/OD/play to Record/Play/od - It seems the only option is to do one shot recording. Not a deal breaker for me, but it does make somethings a bit harder.

The biggest thing though was that there is 2 second delay when changing tracks... this made getting everything set, very difficult and led to me having to leave gaps beentween creating the loops, which somewhat upset the flow. 

Then I didn't like having to double tap for all stop.

Might have to check out the others you mentioned. Trouble is though this is a device that needs time before you know which is the right one.

Also decided that the best way to practice these things is to make a crib sheet for the pedal changes for each song so you know excatly which loop is where.

Jalapeno

As ever practice is key.  Seeing the likes of KT Tunstall & Ed Sheeran creating things literally on with apparent ease can lull you into thinking easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy  "I can do that".  Well you can, but not the day you unbox a looper.  Thankfully there are many YouTube HowTo videos to help.

No Silver Bullets. No Free Lunch.  These remain fundamental truths.

But it is worth doing and is very creative once you master the tools.

Teetonetal

I have seen KT and Ed both screw up their looper sequences many times.... and sure practice is key, but I don't believe in fighting against the interface if there is a better option out there!

Might be that what I am looking for doesn't exist, but to me waiting 2 seconds to switch tracks is not ideal...

Other than that though it's a very cool piece of kit.

menamestom

 

I use a Pigtronix Infinity.  You can set it to Record / Play / Overdub or Record / Overdub / Play.  It's very intuitive and has 2 loops that can be a multiple of lengths of each other.  However I just use mine in series mode.  Play a verse riff on loop one, then press loop 2 for a chorus or break and it records it on the 2nd track.  Then if you are improvising you can change between them when you like rather than having a set sequence that does not change.

There is no quantisation.  I've never had a looper with this function (Zoom G3, Headrush E2 and Infinity).  I played a Boss RC-3 once and I think it had this on.  Perhaps you can turn it off but it was doing something I didn't like, I can tap my foot in time and don't want the looper making decisions for me.  Furthermore, there was a lot of background noise, it was very off putting.  However, I didn't look into whether this was the unit or another issue (in line pwer conditioner for the broadband or something).

But quantisation is something that may be a factor.

I've never had a problem with the timing from the first time I used a looper (although everybody gets a dodgy loop occationally). I always tap my foot in time when playing though, if you don't do that already you have to almost learn 2 things at once, foot discipline and working a looper.  It's funny when you look at some people feet they tap against the beat.  My father-in-law taps almost randomly, I can't play if I see his foot moving as it's off putting.  He'd need a lot of work to operate a looper.

If your foot is already in time or you can do it easily, it's just practise to make good positive steps on the beats you need.

SRich

Jalapeno said:

As ever practice is key.  Seeing the likes of KT Tunstall & Ed Sheeran creating things literally on with apparent ease can lull you into thinking easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy 

KT Tunstall didn't call the Akai E2 Headrush the 'Lil bastard for nothing.

ToneControl

I think my one is good for the DAW idea - but a bit far away from you:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/34096/fs-ft-boss-rc50-looper#latest

Teetonetal

My first attempt at converting a band song to a looper (I also posted this in making music) 

I don't see the timing thing as problem - I mean I spent my life practicing to a metronome - if I can't play in time I should give up!

Biggest hiccup for me was remembering what each pedal does. this track me 2 hours to come up with a record

The infinity looper sounds like it could be my cup of tea - two tracks I will try to track one down along with the RC-300

In terms of the duo it's just going to be me on an acoustic plus singer so the easier the looper is to control the better

Teetonetal

ToneControl said:

I think my one is good for the DAW idea - but a bit far away from you:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/34096/fs-ft-boss-rc50-looper#latest

Ah yes I am switzerland, so both paying in GBP and then dealing with import tax is a PITA

steamabacus

Another option to look at for the multiple loops idea would be the latest 'XT' versions of the Digitech JamMan range. You would need to buy multiple loopers and link them together with the 'Jam Sync' function (uses a standard stereo minijack lead). You can have as many loopers as you want synchronised to one 'master' looper, the slave loops can be any multiple of the master loop in length - in other words, you could have a 1 bar drum loop and then loop a 16 bar chord progression on a linked looper. I've used my own JamMan SoloXT sync'ed to two others with an improvised ambient trio (guitar/bass/keys) and it works well. Also, the JamMan range have an optional FS3 footswitch (you can easily make a DIY version of this as well) which allows 'one press' stop (normally it's a double press on the main f/s to stop - I agree this is a pain) as well as 'loop up' and 'loop down' (scrolling through stored loops). You can switch from one loop to another like this seamlessly as it changes at the end of the current loop.

Certainly one to consider if you pursue this looping malarkey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO7F_-cmqNo