Revelation! modded TS9

Catthan

Hi guys, did this http://www.singlecoil.com/docs/tubescreamer.pdf (p.6) to my stock TS9 reissue; what an improvement! I only swapped the resistors as the stock chip was the 4558D and it really opened up and is much more tasty as a boost than it used to be. It s also nice and smooth when I crank the gain. I m very happy and wish I had a SL to push though the badger ain't bad either. My first mess about with a pedal and I m really impressed by what swapping 2 tiny resistors can do. Wonder what the analogman silver mod is now and what it could do.. Any ideas?

ICBM

Swapping the output resistors to TS-808 values?

I did that to a TS-9 I had - but I put the two different values on a mini-switch so I could change between them. A useful addition was that I could compare the two settings directly on the fly, even switching in the middle of playing if I wanted.

It made NO difference. Not even a little tiny bit.

I used the switch for symetrical/asymetrical clipping instead, which did make a difference...

Catthan

really? that's interesting. well, it didn't become a different pedal, that's for sure. maybe a bit more interesting sounding for lack of better word.. I understand though that the diodes are what's clipping and that should make a real difference

Sporky

ICBM said:

Swapping the output resistors to TS-808 values?

I did that to a TS-9 I had - but I put the two different values on a mini-switch so I could change between them. A useful addition was that I could compare the two settings directly on the fly, even switching in the middle of playing if I wanted.

It made NO difference. Not even a little tiny bit.

If I recall correctly, Beavis Audio did the same thing with the Screamer Lab and drew the same conclusion.

crunchman

It made a difference when I modded mine.  I did find the values for the Keeley mods on the internet somewhere but when I ordered the parts the caps I bought were too big to fit on the board, so its still at the 808 spec now.

Sporky

Here's the Beavis one:

http://www.beavisaudio.com/projects/ScreamerLab/

When I tried different values for the output buffer in the Valvesporker prototypes I couldn't hear a difference between them. In the end I ditched the output buffer altogether.

ICBM

Unless you fit a switch to change the values on the fly it's easy to convince yourself it makes a difference. I thought it did as well, which is why I went to all the trouble of drilling the casing and fitting the switch! At first I thought I'd wired the switch wrong since it made no difference whatever... but no.

Luckily there are many useful changes you can make to a TS circuit with a switch - but the 808/9 resistor swap is not one of them.

If you don't believe me or Beavis Audio, try it. You can use a single DPDT switch since you don't need to switch both ends of the two pairs of resistors. Best to leave the switch hanging and not drill the box just yet though .

Catthan

I am not skilled enough or bothered to fit a switch tbh; I can accept that I may be hearing what I want to hear, ie a difference when there's really not one and, if this is the case, I'll end up not liking it much again. 

For the moment I'll keep it as it is and at some point I might do the swap and do a recording cause that's the proper way to compare imho.

Still, my impression is it's slightly more open and less artificial than stock.

That's at low gain settings (7-10 o'clock). Higher than that and it feels the almost exactly the same.

ICBM

What are you running it into? Given that it changes the output impedance of the buffer it could be possible that it's affecting whatever comes after it, rather than that the pedal itself sounds different. Trust me, it really doesn't...

monquixote

I've realised there is no shame in a pedal being "just a tweaked TS"

I've tried a few things which are apparently only a couple of components away like the Boiling Point and the DIII which are brilliant and quite different in sound.

Catthan

@ICBM,

It's going straight to my Badger 30..

Maybe you got a point as I find it less exciting the more I play it.

For some reason yesterday everything sounded great and "refreshed",,

This is turning out to be a fail of a thread lol..

 

ICBM

Catthan said:

@ICBM,

It's going straight to my Badger 30..

Maybe you got a point as I find it less exciting the more I play it.

For some reason yesterday everything sounded great and "refreshed",,

This is turning out to be a fail of a thread lol.. 

Not at all, I think it's good to check one of the biggest myths about these pedals that there is.

It's particularly important that if there is no difference due to the resistors, and both pedals have the same chip (which isn't a certainty, both used more than one type) then a TS-808 sounds exactly the same as a TS-9, since those are the only differences apart from the casing, switch and the DC jack - they even use the exact same PCB so there can't be a layout issue. If you compare a particular TS-808 and TS-9 and there's an audible difference, it must be down to component tolerance variations - which definitely can affect the sound since they're actually different values.

I am still a little intrigued though - there must be *some* reason the circuit was changed. The odd thing is that the TS-9 actually has a *higher* output impedance than the TS-808 - which is the opposite of what you would expect if they found it was sensitive to the following load, or were just trying to make it 'more perfect'.

Catthan

ICBM said:

Not at all, I think it's good to check one of the biggest myths about these pedals that there is.

It's particularly important that if there is no difference due to the resistors, and both pedals have the same chip (which isn't a certainty, both used more than one type) then a TS-808 sounds exactly the same as a TS-9, since those are the only differences apart from the casing, switch and the DC jack - they even use the exact same PCB so there can't be a layout issue. If you compare a particular TS-808 and TS-9 and there's an audible difference, it must be down to component tolerance variations - which definitely can affect the sound since they're actually different values.

I am still a little intrigued though - there must be *some* reason the circuit was changed. The odd thing is that the TS-9 actually has a *higher* output impedance than the TS-808 - which is the opposite of what you would expect if they found it was sensitive to the following load, or were just trying to make it 'more perfect'.

Though I can't comment on the technicality of it, I would be very surprised I what I heard was resistor tolerances..

Axe_meister

The reason from what I 'd heard was to adapt the TS pedal to transistor amps that were becoming more popular at the time.
Personally I can't hear the difference between the different chips.
My trusty old 80s TS 9 I got for 10 deutsch marks second hand in 88 has always been in my board. It even has the "worst" of the chips in it.

ThePrettyDamned

Visual sound did a myth buster on the chips. I think the opinion was that, in some circuits, the chip really does matter.

In the tubescreamer circuit, it makes very little difference and they switched the chip out for many others. The only one that sounded noticeably different was the last chip, which was a video chip!

They also said the "mojo" chips never went out of production in Japan, and that was a myth in the guitar world.

ICBM

I found that some chips do definitely sound different, but usually only at near maximum distortion settings - which is not how most people use Tube Screamers, and especially not those who worry about this sort of thing .

Axe_meister

Yep think SRV. He used TS 808s/TS9s/TS10s, etc what ever he could get his hands on and probably didn't give a shit as long as it gave him that mid hump and drove his amp hard. Also contary to popular belief he did actually turn up the drive quite a bit

ICBM

Yes, I saw a pic of his pedals on stage, and the distortion controls on both were around 1-2 o'clock - not at all 'using them just to push the amp harder', he was definitely using them to generate a lot of distortion.

Catthan

I think that as more people join this thread there will be an interesting mix of what differences we say we are able to hear.

I though I could hear a difference from the resistor swap at low gain settings whereas some here claimed that there's no difference at all.

The article I followed claimed that there's really no difference between chips unless you take a specific one (of the many used) for a 4558. Others claim they do hear differences.

I also remember when I had a Timmy and I couldn't hear a difference between the 2 asymmetrical clipping options whereas in TGP those options were discussed as a useful feature to the pedal. 

I think it comes down to the subtleties in everyone's rig, tone, settings, environment, playing- dynamics. 

Based on those, my current theory says that a component swap can make a notable difference for some and none for others.

Does this make any sense?

Sporky

Catthan said:

Based on those, my current theory says that a component swap can make a notable difference for some and none for others.

I think the testing methodology is critical to whether or not you can draw sound conclusions.

Something I've been working at recently is triangle testing (as it's called in the food industry). Essentially it's that if you're given two similar (but not identical) things to try, you'll very often be able to identify differences between them. However, given three similar (but not identical) things to try, two of which are the same, it's usually very difficult to identify which is the odd one out, even when you could identify differences between the two samples presented together.

With anything that relies on your senses and perception (sound, taste and more) testing fairly is quite tricky to do.

ICBM

When comparing a 4558 to one of the other original types (I forget which one) there was an absolutely clear difference with the distortion up full - the 'other' chip sounded harsh and oversaturated, quite different from the 4558 which sounded the same all the way up. It only happened above about 4 o'clock, but it was clear enough that I would expect anyone to be able to hear it. Below the point it occurred I wouldn't say there was much, if any, audible difference.

It is possible that the output resistor change *could* have some effect into something with an unusually sensitive input - although none of the other changes can, exactly because the buffer will prevent that. But, with a direct-switching test (which I think is the most accurate, even more so than recording), into a normal valve amp, there was simply no difference whatever. It wasn't even possible to tell the switch was being operated most of the time unless it caused a tiny click.

It's really not a difficult thing to test for yourself - if you can mod a pedal, you can try it.