Employment law RE apprentices

underdog

I thought I'd ask here as there's such a huge range of knowledge on these boards it's worth a shot.

We currently have 2 apprentices at our studio who are edging closer to "make or break" time in the tattoo world.

Now being a tattoo apprentice is very much an old school situation, you work unpaid for x amount of time, learning how to tattoo, but also helping in all other aspects of the job, and are slowly eased in to tattooing customers and eventually in to a full time job.

As an employer, this takes a lot of commitment, to spend 2 or more years training up someone that may never make it, or make it and walk out the door to work somewhere else.

I'm just thinking ahead, we treat our girls well, they get paid, only work 4 days a week etc, but could we legally contract them to a set amount of time working for us after they've "qualified"?

By this I mean could there be a contract that says you have to work for us for 70% of the time you were an apprentice or similar?

randomhandclaps

Ultimately there is nothing you can do to stop them leaving as soon as they have finished their training (or at any point).  If you imagine effectively there could be any reason for them wanting to leave other than going to work somewhere else, although that's obviously would seem the most likely.  It would just lead to situations where people say "I've got to look after my sick mum!".

Some businesses used to 'cost' their training and say that if you left before such a date you had to repay training costs.  Again though this is virtually unenforceable if someone just refuses with the costs of court.

What I have considered before if we ever get to the point of taking someone on is to develop a financial incentive to encourage them to stay.  I know it's not easy but as an example reduce the wage paid and pay the rest into a savings account that pays out at a certain time if they have stuck around.

By and large we like what we know and provided they are treated decent, like the work and earn a competitive amount most would stay on.  In my experience in music studios (though not in my own) if an apprentice is willing to graft for crap or no wages and stick out a solid period then they will probably stay on beyond - although admittedly that could be largely dependent on how easy it is to get another position in that industry.

Sambostar

I have no idea. but I guess you could either zero hour or part time up to 'X' like most corporations do, or be prepared to cop their pension and sick pay over 'X' hrs.  I'm sure any contract, if fair would be legally binding, although don't know employment law.  Ignore me.

thumpingrug

The term "apprentice"gets banded around a lot.  In days of yore it had a meaning.  Today legally very few true apprenticeships actually exist and they have a very specific meaning in employment law.  It pretty much only applies to certain government training schemes that link a very very low paid job to a set number of hours of formal educational training.

What your describing isn't an apprenticeship but an in-house training scheme.  Sorry to be pedantic on this but in employment law terms it matters.

The answer to your question about holding them to a specific time after their training has finished is no.  However what a lot of training establishments do is write into the contract that the cost of the training would have to be repaid if they left within a specified period of time after the training is complete.  This period is typically 6-12 months, but in any case has to be "reasonable".  You can't hold onto someone with a threat of thousands of £ of penalties for decades.   In addition you must have made this clear to them in a written contract when they first began the training.  It can't be introduced half way through.  You will also have to be able to justify and itemise the training costs.

In any event its always possible that its open to challenge as an unfair contractual term, but only if it every got to court.  if you want to introduce this as part of your workplace practice of see and specials employment solicitor and get a contract drawn up that you can use in the future.  A few hundred quid spend now will save you loads in the future if you are challenged.  

underdog

Cheers for the input, I'm going to ring the guys we takes care of our legal contracts (as part of our perks of FSB membership) tomorrow, but thought (correctly) it was worth asking on here.

It seems one of the girls has made a slight f**k up in that her or her family memeber has been asking other studios about potential for work when she's fully trained, so honestly this was a question to try and save the years of training we gave her and keep her employed with us while giving us a little security.

thumpingrug

I applaud your approach.

Try being a nice boss, pay the going rate and offer her opportunities for further training and progression and hope that its enough.

  

PolarityMan

I'm sorry but it's a bit rich moaning about her leaving if she has been working for you for free.

underdog

PolarityMan;570980" said:

I'm sorry but it's a bit rich moaning about her leaving if she has been working for you for free.

I'm sorry but you obviously didn't read my post

fretmeister

There is a general presumption that "Restraint of trade" clauses won't be enforceable.

Even less likely to be enforceable during if the traing period includes work duties that are unpaid.

And put it this way - apprentice leaves and gets a job next door... Are you going to blow £10k suing them to take away their job?

But... If you properly valued the training at say £10k then you can have a type of training loan agreement.

You will provide £10k of training. On completion they work for you for 2 years on an agreed salary and thus dont owe you the training money. If they wish to leave they can... But if they leave before the 2 year period is Over they owe you 10k (or less, worked out pro rata) to pay for the training. BUT if you let them go after the training they owe you nothing.

Very common is that.

holnrew

How about this, tell them if they stay working for you, they get to date me?

underdog

fretmeister;571011" said:

There is a general presumption that "Restraint of trade" clauses won't be enforceable.

Even less likely to be enforceable during if the traing period includes work duties that are unpaid.

And put it this way - apprentice leaves and gets a job next door... Are you going to blow £10k suing them to take away their job?

But... If you properly valued the training at say £10k then you can have a type of training loan agreement.

You will provide £10k of training. On completion they work for you for 2 years on an agreed salary and thus dont owe you the training money. If they wish to leave they can... But if they leave before the 2 year period is Over they owe you 10k (or less, worked out pro rata) to pay for the training. BUT if you let them go after the training they owe you nothing.

Very common is that.

Ah now that's more along the lines of what I was thinking. Cheers for that fret, it will help us in future but hopefully in the short term it'd allow us to work something out to keep our current employee.

PolarityMan

underdog said:

PolarityMan;570980" said:

I'm sorry but it's a bit rich moaning about her leaving if she has been working for you for free.

I'm sorry but you obviously didn't read my post

What can I say, I'm ideologically opposed to unpaid internships and I wouldn't have one set of standards for say law students and another for tattoo artists.  If you hire someone you should be paying them, even if you are giving them training.

In a career choice that is quite aspirational for some people I think it is even more important adhere to ethical employment standards regardless of whether it's common practice in the industry or not. 

underdog

PolarityMan;571025" said:

underdog said:

PolarityMan;570980" said:I'm sorry but it's a bit rich moaning about her leaving if she has been working for you for free.

I'm sorry but you obviously didn't read my post












What can I say, I'm ideologically opposed to unpaid internships and I wouldn't have one set of standards for say law students and another for tattoo artists.  If you hire someone you should be paying them, even if you are giving them training.

In a career choice that is quite aspirational for some people I think it is even more important adhere to ethical employment standards regardless of whether it's common practice in the industry or not. 

and if you read my post, you will see I mention that they do get paid by us

EricTheWeary

The payback your training by working type contracts used to be common in the public sector eg the NHS. I think they have largely gone now as it became impossible to gaurantee work at the other end.
Not having that type of contract also means you can just let someone go at the end of their apprenticeship period without having to find reasons to not give them the job you have previously attempted to tie them into.

The govt apprenticeship scheme is something like you pay them minimum wage the govt gives you £1500 compensation. Assuming the apprentice has some productivity as well as learning stuff then I guess the employer ends up about even. Eric Jr. having not long completed his IT apprenticeship, there was a chunk of work as work experience so his employer did benefit from having him there, it wasn't just out of the kindness of their hearts.

PolarityMan

underdog said:

PolarityMan;571025" said:

underdog said:
and if you read my post, you will see I mention that they do get paid by us

Apologies I was kinda focused on the first part of your post

underdog

PolarityMan;571206" said:

underdog said:

PolarityMan;571025" said:underdog said:




and if you read my post, you will see I mention that they do get paid by us















Apologies I was kinda focused on the first part of your post

we were determined to try and break the habit the industry has of using apprentices as unpaid lackies for 2 or 3 years, so we pay them, they are not asked to do anything anyone else in the shop doesn't do (like lunch runs are done on a Rota by everyone not just sending the apprentice every time) and they work a 4 day week instead of the 6 most are asked to work. Then on their days off they can come in and tattoo if they like an earn a bit extra.

I believe we're more than fair and have taught these girls since they were kids (one was 15 one was 16) so they kind of feel like our children to us.

BigMonka

You have a very similar situation in most industries. For example we take on engineering graduates and put them through a programme of becoming chartered engineers, then once they get those letters after their name they become instantly more marketable and so can easily go and get another job with better pay.

We try to combat it by providing further training in things like management and giving them as many opportunities as possible but in reality a proportion won't care that the company has been good to them for 5years and will go and try to find their riches elsewhere. We've also had a few people come back because this is actually a good place to work. I've been here since leaving uni and have stayed because they've been good to me and I like it here.

So if I were you I'd be thinking about what you can give them when they finish their apprenticeships - more responsibility, get them training others so they feel like you value them and their experience?

And remember that anyone experienced that you employ will have been trained at someone else's expense so you give a bit and get a bit, you reap what you sow, karma, etc etc

Dalefty

underdog said:

we were determined to try and break the habit the industry has of using apprentices as unpaid lackies for 2 or 3 years, so we pay them, they are not asked to do anything anyone else in the shop doesn't do (like lunch runs are done on a Rota by everyone not just sending the apprentice every time) and they work a 4 day week instead of the 6 most are asked to work. Then on their days off they can come in and tattoo if they like an earn a bit extra.

I believe we're more than fair and have taught these girls since they were kids (one was 15 one was 16) so they kind of feel like our children to us.

That seems to be the norm from what our interns/apprentices tell me - I'm not British and have only recently moved here, but our interns - we have two, tell me being paid is rare, that most people and companies either expect them to intern/apprentice for free, if not pay for that pleasure, for the record we also pay both of ours, not a lot, £7.00 an hour I think for a 30 odd hour week, but one of them will most likely be fired before this month is up or if he's lucky mid way through next month.  But we do make our interns do the lunch runs and tea and coffee runs - I've tried to send one out to Tesco's to pick me up a bottle of Jack but she's worse than my ex and brought me back a bottle of water instead, we also have them on a four day week, but they're free to come in on their own time if they want or stay after hours if they like - we give them long weekends, but most of the interesting stuff at work happens over the weekends or at least between Friday and Saturday, or 'after hours', say after six in the evening or even after midnight so we allow them to come in if they want outside of their 'normal' contracted hours - everyone where I work has a contract of sorts, and they do sometimes get paid for it - if they end up doing more than just observing.

Some of the stuff they tell me that their friends who are also inters have to put up with just shocks me, and is not far off of slavery, especially for those who are doing an internship to become a P.A.  But both our interns - we haven't had them long, just under a year, are adults, both have at least one degree, the one who is about to get fired has a PhD - god knows how he managed to get that, he's as thick as shit.  And there are actual jobs waitig for them at the end should they wish to stay on, when the useless one gets fired we will be replacing him with another intern.

DaLefty

Dalefty

I just fired one of our interns on Monday past, it's the first time I have ever fired anybody in my life, truth be told this is the first time that I have actually had 'staff', or people below me in the pecking order of a company, before moving here I was always emloyed as an independent subcontractor who was contracted exclusively to one client at a time.  I must say out of around twenty years in the same industry, I can honestly say that is the worst day at work I have ever had, and what makes it even more depressing is I now have to go through hundreds of C.V's to find a replacement for the dumb fuck, not to mention actually interview people for the position.

Thank god for drugs and alcohol is all I can say.

DaLefty

ESBlonde

There is a reason good management costs money. It's not all predetermined what your days will bring.

underdog

I can sympathise, not staff related but yesterday was a horrible day at work.