Ebay oddity? DSR problem.

Myranda

Trying to summarise 

Mother sold a bike on ebay.

Bike was described as "2011 Marin Redwood bike" and "18inch frame"

Auction won 27th September for £175

Auction winner comes to pay in cash.

Auction winner examines the bike thoroughly (even turning it upside down)

Bike has sticker on that states 17inch frame (mother says typo).

Auction winner hands over cash and rides away.

12th October mother gets email claiming that that the bike has been incorrectly described and he wants a "partial refund" of £100

Now, the bike was bought for her from the shop for her birthday in 2011 though the buyer is claiming it's the 2004 model due to bikepedia image - so perhaps the bike was in stock at the shop for some time, but was definitely bought new in 2011. 

Size of bike was described as 18" on the sale (doh) but the buyer examined the bike - including the sticker put on from when it was bought as she'd ridden it so little which clearly said in 10mm ish high letters saying 17"

He had opportunity to examine the goods and then took more than than two weeks to decide it wasn't right... then demanded a 58% refund.

Is it unreasonable to politely tell him to go **** himself? Or because my mother is a bit of a flake is he in the right?

Moneysavingexpert forum searches seem to suggest that pay in cash experiences leave you with no legal rights for refunds... so not keen on just folding on this one.

Nitefly

I'd say "Bought as seen - no comebacks".  (But I'm no lawyer!)...

randomhandclaps

He has no way of making her pay a refund as paying by cash negates any EBay/Paypal payment protection.  Also, he is not claiming a fault or not fit for purpose so he has no legal right to pursue any complaint.  It would be like buying a car and then trying to get a refund because you'd have preferred a different colour.

I would say that telling him to politely fuck off would be an act of generosity.

You'd have thought the dick would have scouted Bikepedia prior to bidding on it!

In short, he's obviously being a knob and has absolutely no rights in this instance.

Just to add, although this doesn't apply in this case 'Sold As Seen' is used by a lot of sellers as a defence but it has absolutely no legal standing in the event of a faulty product, anything that is misrepresented or an item that is not fit for purpose.  Personally. I tend to steer clear of any business seller who feel the need to use the term unless it is in acknowledgement of a highlight fault.

Misterg

I didn't think that 'fitness for purpose' or DSR protection applied to sales from a private individual? So unless your mum sold the bike as an ebay trade seller, I don't think the purchaser has any comeback whatsoever.

"I'm sorry, but you bought it as seen and inspected on --/--/----. "

randomhandclaps

'Fitness for purpose' does still apply to private sellers as it may not have been possible to thoroughly test the function or spot any hidden fault in a brief inspection - you are duty bound even as a private seller to highlight faults.  As an example the bike frame could have been cracked and sprayed over.  This would not have been apparent in an initial inspection but if the bike then fell apart due to the fault you would are still responsible as a private seller.

Obviously, none of this applies in this case.

Misterg

randomhandclaps said:

'Fitness for purpose' does still apply to private sellers as it may not have been possible to thoroughly test the function or spot any hidden fault in a brief inspection - you are duty bound even as a private seller to highlight faults.

I don't want to start argument but (!) I beg to differ, and think that you just need to give honest answers about faults, rather than to point them out (e.g if someone asks whether a guitar has had a headstock repair, and you know it has, then you should say so, but there's no obligation AFAIK to point out that it has had a headstock repair unless asked.)

From the Trading Standards guidance

PRIVATE SALES

When you buy goods from a private individual, you don't have the same rights as when buying from a trader. The legal principle of caveat emptor, or 'buyer beware', operates. You have no right to expect that goods are of satisfactory quality or fit for their purpose but there is a requirement that they should be as described. You should check goods thoroughly before you buy them.

I think there could be a problem here with the 'as described' bit. The tricky thing is that the buyer has left it a long time before raising this as a complaint.The refund request does seem excessive, though. Is there really that much difference in the 2nd hand value of the two different models?  May be better to ask him to return it in good condition, give him the money back & stick it on ebay again.

ICBM

Tell him to get lost - he's trying it on. If he saw the 17" sticker at the time of sale and still bought it, it's his problem now. If he didn't see it when it's so clear, it's still his problem.

Actually I would just ignore the email.

randomhandclaps

As you pointed out the 'as described' is the grey ground when pitched against 'buyer beware' - if faults are concealed or not drawn to the attention of the buyer then the seller is liable.  The quote from trading standard is somewhat powerless as trading standards do not enforce against private sellers.  In such cases the burden of proof does lie with the buyer to prove that the seller must have been aware of the issue so again it is far more complex and interpretable than business selling.

Selling through a system like EBay is not the same as selling privately and (as pointed out before you list anything) you are bound by the same rules as business sellers.

Again, none of this applies in this case.

Sporky

Tell him that as you've now discovered that it's the more sought-after 2004 model and in the rare 17" frame, he owes you an additional £200. Thank him for bringing this to your attention.

randomhandclaps

Sporky said:

Tell him that as you've now discovered that it's the more sought-after 2004 model and in the rare 17" frame, he owes you an additional £200. Thank him for bringing this to your attention.

That would be a great response.

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Moneysavingexpert forum searches seem to suggest that pay in cash experiences leave you with no legal rights for refunds... so not keen on just folding on this one.

Caveat emptor - buyer beware. By paying cash the buyer has breached eBay's terms and conditions so no redress will be available from the company. This is a private transaction so I think that the purchaser of goods must take care to ensure that they are free from defects of quality etc. He had a chance to thoroughly inspect the bike before purchase so it's his hard luck. I wouldn't refund him a penny.

Fazer

they paid by cash after inspecting the goods, so that is that, you dont have to do anything if you dont want to.

the frame size difference is minor, and who is to say that the bikipedia image is correct. if the bike was bought new in 2011 then its perfectly reasonable to assume it is the 2011 model and describe it as such. the description was made in good faith.
apart from which a bike from 2004 is going to be of equivalent quality to one made in 2011 i would imagine. we are not talking about a phone or something.

the 'partial refund' of £100 is a joke.

basically you dont have to refund them anything if you dont want to.
seems to me the 3 options are: say no, offer a minor refund as a good faith gesture (the £100 is way too much), or a refund on the whole sale if the bike is returned in exactly the same condition as bought.

Sporky

Fazer said:

or a refund on the whole sale if the bike is returned in exactly the same condition as bought.

The tyres will be worn, so certainly not a full refund.

Personally I just wouldn't engage at all.

randomhandclaps

As both ICBM and Sporky have said,  I would just ignore it completely.

Drew_TNBD

Sporky said:

Tell him that as you've now discovered that it's the more sought-after 2004 model and in the rare 17" frame, he owes you an additional £200. Thank him for bringing this to your attention.

please please please PLEASE do this!!

digitalscream

Surely the DSR doesn't have anything to do with this anyway, since the sale was completed in person?

martinw

DSRs only apply to businesses.

Myranda

Well, everyone appears to be saying (writing) what I was thinking about this... the ebay buyer protection system makes a blanket statement along the lines of "If you cannot come to an agreement Ebay will normally refund the price and seek payment from the seller" well... that didn't seem fair in this case.

Sporky

Aye - wot Martin said. The DSRs are completely irrelephant in this situation.

randomhandclaps

martinw said:

DSRs only apply to businesses.

That's true, but the sales of goods act does apply for a sales contracts whether business or private.  That is the reason EBay offers buyer protection in the case of private sellers so as to alleviate an avalanche of private cases causing bad publicity and possible restrictions from the DTI.  They are not offering you any more than you legal right, it's just they enforce it in such a black and white manner that they almost always find in favour of the buyer as it is easier and the seller has little room to appeal it.

Four rules apply to private sales -

1. The seller must have the right to sell the goods ( S.12)
2. Goods sold by description must correspond to the description (S.13)
3. Goods must be of satisfactory quality (s.14)  (This is the tricky one)
4. Goods sold by sample, the goods must correspond to the sample in quality (s.15)

Number 3. is virtually impossible to enforce in private sales and is the only one where the defence of 'the buyer had the opportunity to inspect it on collection' would hold any sway.

 

Myranda

Well he rode the bike home and took two weeks to not be satisfied. The bike was a reasonable quality model that had been ridden so little that the chain was still shiny and new looking (I did the photos because my mother is so technophobic that her phones camera might as well be a DIY space shuttle construction kit)