REAMPING

ecc83

Maxi.  Don't bother to learn about "impedances". It hardly ever matters. In fact the term "impedance" as commonly used to specify inputs and outputs is a bit of a misnomer most of the time. The input of a guitar amp of say, 1 MEG is actually almost a total RESISTANCE, i.e. not frequency dependent at all (there is a wee bit of input capacitance that acts as an RF stopper but is of little consequence  in the audio band)

Similarly the output of things like mixers, AIs, most decent (i.e. buffered) pedals, is again resistive and only departs from that at frequency extremes, well out of the interest of the audio bod and especially way out for guitars!

Yes, some things have a frequency dependent output or input. Guitar pick ups and speakers are two but since there is generally Jack S we can do about it, we live with it!

Concentrate your learning on LEVELS. If these are right, impedance has "taken care of itself". Learn a bit about decibels, dBV, dBu, and dBFS and  operating levels.

Dave.

koneguitarist

Nice discussion, not something I have done before, I have allways had my amp in another room mic'd up, play the track with someone next to amp tweaking it till it sounds right for mix with a flat EQ. I like the idea, but is it something more usefull for rockier tones or do people still use it for clean stuff ?

AndyJP

@clarky question for ya chief. Just read this and it's really useful info. 

I've seen lots of vids recently about people reamping in the mix with axefx. But they aren't using a Reamp box. They are using just an external audio interface. Reading your post I got the impression I'd need both Reamp box and audio interface. 

So what are these guys doing different? What would both units give me over just an audio interface? Cheers for any help mate.

Clarky

Clarky said:

I only ever work at 44.1KHz / 24-bit

it seems ok to me..

not anymore... I now only work at 48KHz/ 24-bit

Clarky

AndyJP said:

@clarky question for ya chief. Just read this and it's really useful info. 

I've seen lots of vids recently about people reamping in the mix with axefx. But they aren't using a Reamp box. They are using just an external audio interface. Reading your post I got the impression I'd need both Reamp box and audio interface. 

So what are these guys doing different? What would both units give me over just an audio interface? Cheers for any help mate.

essentially there are two ways of reamping:

1: via the 1/4" input [INSTR-IN] and the 1/4" jacks out of the back of the FX-unit.

this is the way I used to do it... you at least need and audio interface. this is to get the dry signal from the DAW [USB or FW], convert it to analogue and then send it to the FX unit via a jack cable. and then to receive the reamped signal from the FX unit via the jack cable/s, digitize them and then send them back into the DAW [via USB or FW].

this process, although perfectly good has a few lil' issues that need to be addressed..

- the level of the dry signal must be the same as the level of your guitar so that you get the same tone.. this is a little less importany for high gain tones, but more critical when you have cleans that are on the edge of breakup [what I think of as "aggressive cleans"].. I did this by eye.. basically jack the guitar into the Axe and play the part whilst watching the input LEDs so get a sense of what the signal level is, then alter the level ofthe dry signal from the DAW so that it looks roughly the same.. it's not difficult to get so close to the point where you can't hear a difference between the DRY and a real guitar.. and it only takes a mo..

- most jack outputs on mixing desks and audio interfaces are not designed to be jacked into guitar amps / guitar FX units [instr input].. there's an impedance mismatch.. there can result in a poor signal to noise ratio.. interestingly, I never noticed this when reamping with the 2120 or the VG-99.. but I did with the Axe-II.. the noise was not acceptable.. so I got a RedEye reamp box.. this matches the mixer / AI impedance on it's input, and it's output looks like a guitar to the fx-unit / guitar amp.. it certainly improves the noise prob, but there is a gotchya.. you lose a little level and some top end [both easy to fix]..

with this setup I got perfectly good results...

2: via the FX unit's built in USB audio interface

This is how I do things now and I much prefer both the work flow and the end result. The recorded dry signal is exactly the same level as the guitar's original performance [assuming you recorded via the Axe to capture the dry part]. So there's no goofing around to get the dry signal's level right. And as the signal is digital all the way, there is no longer the impedance stuff to consider.. so there's no "fixing up your highs"..

my solution uses an aggregate interface.. my Mackey and my Axe together..

my Mackey is a 2-in / 16-out mixer with a FireWire interface. So.. From the DAW perspective:

outputs 1/2 = "DAW IN" [by deafult channels 15/16 on the Mackey].. which then goes to the Mackey master out fader and so get to my monitors]

outputs 3/4 = inputs 1/2 on the Axe [this receives the dry signal from the DAW when reamping]

inpjuts 1 thru 16 = Mackey outputs 1 thru 16 [mics,real keys / synths, 2120, VG-99 etc]

inputs 17 / 18 = Axe outputs 1/2 [the wet signal outputs on the Axe used for recording the reamped guitar tones]

inputs 19 / 20 = Axe outputs 3/4 [the dry signal outputs on the Axe used for reording the dry part]

here's the cool part.....

the Axe is jacked into my Mackey [channel 13/14] so that when I play the Axe, I hear it in real time through my monitors [just as normal] without any latency [cos it's not making the trip from the Axe into the DAW and back].. when I play back the DAW [and iTunes / anything else too] that plays into the Mackey DAW-IN [15/16].. so I can play along to anything and everything in real time.. when I'm recording the dry signal, the signal is passed from the Axe to the DAW for recording, but the Axe will also play the tones normally out of the jack outs.. so I'm recording the dry signal whilst listening to the wet guitars [via the jack cables that come into the mixer on 13/14].. works an absolute treat...

AndyJP

@clarky really appreciate that mate. Ta for taking the time to explain. Will give your way a shot

Clarky

do you know how to make an aggregate interface [in a Mac]??

if not I can help..

but I don't know how to do this in a PC

AndyJP

Nah mate, not a scooby doo. But I'm on a PC. Just axefx into laptop via usb. Using reaper for a daw.

xchrisv

I've done it plenty of times over the years with various engineers in various studios. The only thing that slightly freaks me out about the process is that, when I dial in a sound in the studio, I'm playing the amp tone, dynamically speaking, as much as I'm playing the guitar, so the way the amp responds to pick attack etc is a big part of the performance. If you then re-amp a dry feed from that performance, it might sound good, but it would probably sound even better if it was played again as it would include the direct interaction with the amplifier as an 'instrument', especially if there's onboard spring reverb in the equation. I guess I feel like I'm playing the whole signal chain, not just a guitar into an interchangeable box... Not saying it isn't a useful technique or that I haven't done it on occasion, I just feel like I get better results by committing to a sound and playing that sound and all of its inherent dynamic characteristics.

Clarky

when you play through speakers I think if effects the feel more than the tone..

once you've captured that dry performance and then reamp it, it's the same as if you actually played straight into the Axe..

but there are serious advantages..

- if you need to punch-in to mend a lil' duff moment, the join in the audio will be far more invisible if you do it in the dry tone than if you do it in the wet tone..

- you do not commit to the tone, so if for example [once in the context of mixing down] you think the tone don't quite fit [needs more / less gain, tighter low end, de-shrill the highs etc], it's better to mend the source tone than throw loads of studio tools at it [the less studio 'stuff' happening on your tone the more you've nailed it]

- if you are blending guitar tones to create a bigger tone, you have much greater / easier scope to experiment [to your heart's content] without having to re-record your actual performance..

personally, I'd never go back to recording with wet / amp'd tones.. it's far to limiting..

note also that I've even captured feedback in the dry tone… so when I reamped, that was in there too...

ThePrettyDamned

Clarky said:

I know that reamping is not exactly rare for guys with rack units..

but do any of you guys reamp with real amps, old skool stylie???

I do this.  Do a dry take (guitar - Line 6 pod studio ux2 - Reaper) then turn off monitoring from the UX2, shove a mic in front of the amp, route the analogue line out into the amp (pod studio has an output volume control so doesn't need to be a massive signal) then keep doing takes till it sounds good. 

Clarky

ThePrettyDamned said:

Clarky said:

I know that reamping is not exactly rare for guys with rack units..

but do any of you guys reamp with real amps, old skool stylie???

I do this.  Do a dry take (guitar - Line 6 pod studio ux2 - Reaper) then turn off monitoring from the UX2, shove a mic in front of the amp, route the analogue line out into the amp (pod studio has an output volume control so doesn't need to be a massive signal) then keep doing takes till it sounds good. 

that's awesome.. propper old skool stuff..

I've read articles about producers that'd capture the dry performance of a guitarist [which his live rig is also being recorded, and then they'd go and hire in a pile of amps and cabs and try out all kinds of combinations of stuff until they hit tonal utopia..

ThePrettyDamned

Clarky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Clarky said:

I know that reamping is not exactly rare for guys with rack units..

but do any of you guys reamp with real amps, old skool stylie???

I do this.  Do a dry take (guitar - Line 6 pod studio ux2 - Reaper) then turn off monitoring from the UX2, shove a mic in front of the amp, route the analogue line out into the amp (pod studio has an output volume control so doesn't need to be a massive signal) then keep doing takes till it sounds good. 

that's awesome.. propper old skool stuff..

I've read articles about producers that'd capture the dry performance of a guitarist [which his live rig is also being recorded, and then they'd go and hire in a pile of amps and cabs and try out all kinds of combinations of stuff until they hit tonal utopia..

It works, I had a feedback loop for a while until I worked out how to stop monitoring via UX2...

It was really useful for teaching me about mic placement. 

Clarky

I'd love to be able to play with all that stuff…

I just don't have the right environment for it..

kizzer

I use a Littlelabs Redeye as some of the guys have suggested.

My typical setup is:

Guitar plugged direct into Redeye - Redeye output jack to pedalboard to amp

Redeye XLR output to recording interface - recording interface XLR return to redeye

This allows me to mic up my amp and get a good workable tone as well as record the direct output of the guitar, which allows me to come back at a later date and try out a meriad of different amps, fx and micing techniques without having to restring/replay the part.