Band public liability insurance?

siraxeman

Been gigging regularly for 3 years now and well only been asked for it once before and as we didn't have it the venue turned a blind eye. Now in 3 weeks time got another gig coming up - my lil sisters wedding and her venue has said we need PAT testing and PLI....so, wondering if we can get the PLI just maybe for the day of the wedding just to save a few squids on something that we don't otherwise need. As for the PAT testing I've priced that up locally and a guy can come out to one of our next rehearsals and test our gear @ £66 + VAT for up to 20 items which I'm guessing should be sufficient.

Anyway any advice on the PLI or even PAT testing ??

cheers guys

Phil_aka_Pip

You can buy PAT stickers and a marker pen from Maplin.

Join the MU for PLI, you get so much more than just PLI for your money.

siraxeman

Really ? Is it that easy? What do I do with the marker pen then ? lol

not_the_dj

Some gear insurance policies have PLI as an add-on, I'm covered through that with Music Guard (can't recall how much is added to the premium but it wasn't much), and if you're gigging regularly it's something you should consider. Not mandatory but I don't fancy being personally liable for someone's long term care if they trip over my pedal board, knock into the PA stand and catch a speaker with their head.

I'm sure faking PAT tests is pretty common place, it comes down to how much of a risk you perceive if something does go wrong and the paperwork trail isn't there.

John_P

There's a potential problem with just adding PAT stickers - some venues want to see the certificate not stickers so it might be less hassle just to pay as a band and get your gear tested.

not_the_dj

John_P said:

There's a potential problem with just adding PAT stickers - some venues want to see the certificate not stickers so it might be less hassle just to pay as a band and get your gear tested.

If someone wanted to they could google "PAT testing certificate" and download a PDF.

If you're going to be playing weddings you'l find it a lot more common to be asked for this than pubs (I can't actually think of a pub that's ever asked me, but hotels etc. for weddings do).

rlw

not_the_dj said:

John_P said:

There's a potential problem with just adding PAT stickers - some venues want to see the certificate not stickers so it might be less hassle just to pay as a band and get your gear tested.

If someone wanted to they could google "PAT testing certificate" and download a PDF.

If you're going to be playing weddings you'l find it a lot more common to be asked for this than pubs (I can't actually think of a pub that's ever asked me, but hotels etc. for weddings do).

Just did that and its all as vague as a very vague thing isn't it, apart from the fact that you ought to.............

fretmeister

The main problem about fraudulently claiming that your gear is PAT tested is that when something happens your insurers will refuse to pay out.

If the "something" is serious enough you can then just hand over your house deeds to the victims.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.

grungebob

Faking pat testing would also constitute fraud so for the cost involved why risk it? It's not a legal requirement to have it just a nice to have, typical 2 year review unless obvious damage can be seen.

Danny1969

We get asked for PAT certificate all the time from hotels, they want a PDF of that and PLI emailed prior to the gig generally

PLI is only around £140 a year so worth getting annually 

PAT testing is something a competent person can do themselves, because the cost of getting it done can mount up. An amp is 2 things for example, the IEC lead needs testing and so does the amp it's self. All you extension leads also need testing. 20 items wouldn't cover the mains cables in my band let alone the gear

I keep a PDF which itemizes the gear and the date it was tested. Then the gear is sticker-ed which shows the retest date

It's a funny old game though PAT testing ..... technically by law there's no need to use a sticker or keep a record but the law states it may be of help to do so ....... basically it's a very vague area!

not_the_dj

Danny1969 said:

....... basically it's a very vague area!

The rules are vague, but if the venue you're playing at insist on it then it becomes pretty clear.

fretmeister

Danny1969 said:

It's a funny old game though PAT testing ..... technically by law there's no need to use a sticker or keep a record but the law states it may be of help to do so ....... basically it's a very vague area!

But there is a law about keeping false records that you later try to rely on.

That's enough for a conviction for attempting to pervert the course of justice, and you don't just get a fine for that sort of thing.

Danny1969

I'm not suggesting anyone falsifies anything. As I said I PAT test our equipment and keep a record in a PDF which I can email. If a piece of gear fails a PAT test I wouldn't use it. 

Apart from the condition of the cable though a PAT test is no guarantee at all that the equipment is safe to use, and is some cases some tests can actually damage the equipment and make it less safe to use than it was before 

grungebob

You can't pat test anything with surge protection or PC's. For our work we get charged 160+vat for a full day of testing. We do it to avoid debate or time wasting but, there is no legal requirement for it to be carried out. Equipment under 12 months old is exempt unless obvious signs of damage. It really is a pain in the arse

Phil_aka_Pip

fretmeister said:

The main problem about fraudulently claiming that your gear is PAT tested is that when something happens your insurers will refuse to pay out.

If the "something" is serious enough you can then just hand over your house deeds to the victims.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.

PAT Testing certs are not worth the paper they are written on regardless of who fills them in. To start with a "visual inspection" is required, and that's for the existence and quality of the insulation on the mains lead. Secondly, the "meter" checks the resistance between the earth pin of the plug and the equipment's chassis, and blows a rude raspberry in it's more than 0.5 Ohm. So then the PAT Tester wallah clicks the button that tells the "meter" that the mains lead is 3m or more long, so the meter gets more forgiving and passes it. The man then scribbles something illegible on the sticker and applies it to the equipment.

It's all BLX. Self-respecting musicians maintain their gear and don't need to be told when something becomes substandard.

not_the_dj

Phil_aka_Pip said:

fretmeister said:

The main problem about fraudulently claiming that your gear is PAT tested is that when something happens your insurers will refuse to pay out.

If the "something" is serious enough you can then just hand over your house deeds to the victims.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.

PAT Testing certs are not worth the paper they are written on regardless of who fills them in. To start with a "visual inspection" is required, and that's for the existence and quality of the insulation on the mains lead. Secondly, the "meter" checks the resistance between the earth pin of the plug and the equipment's chassis, and blows a rude raspberry in it's more than 0.5 Ohm. So then the PAT Tester wallah clicks the button that tells the "meter" that the mains lead is 3m or more long, so the meter gets more forgiving and passes it. The man then scribbles something illegible on the sticker and applies it to the equipment.

It's all BLX. Self-respecting musicians maintain their gear and don't need to be told when something becomes substandard.

Irrelevant if the venue you're playing at insists on it.

It's not happened to me personally but IIRC it was either* @erictheweary or @rocknrolldave that had a gig canned because their gear wasn't PAT tested. 

*edit, it was erictheweary, so sorry to rocknrolldave for getting a bat signal....still you play a lot of fancy weddings don't you, so what's your experience of this?

fretmeister

If the venue offers you a gig subject to you having proper PAT testing then it forms part of your contract with them.

For all you know, it might even be a requirement of their own Public Liability insurance policy requirements.

This is the important bit: If someone is deceitful then you are in the firing line for everything. The usual protections of "foreseeable" damage / injury etc are swept away.

If are deceitful about PAT testing and it is later confirmed that PAT testing would have identified something that needed fixing and that broken thing caused the Tower of London to fall over - then even though that is NOT remotely foreseeable you take it in the arse for the (w)hole lot.

siremoon

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

Danny1969

What normally happens is the happy couple tells the hotel event manager that they are having a band at the event and the band then have to either email in advance their PAT and PLI Certs or produce on the day

So in short you gotta have them but wedding work is quite well paid so it's not a huge hardship .... It's a tax deductible expense as well

Vibetronic

if you're doing functions at hotels etc regularly, it would definitely be worth doing what Danny said and get cover for the year. When I was in a covers/function band we just got PLI cover for the day, which was £66 plus a £10 fee. We only got asked for it about 3 times over quite a long stretch so didn't bother getting yearly cover, and then we broke up anyway. The last couple of times I had to check though, and would've been caught out if I hadn't.

re MU PLI cover - I asked them about this and still have the reply if it's any use: The PLI benefit is for individual members only and doesn’t cover bands I’m afraid.  If you needed full cover then all members of the band would need to be members of the MU.  alternatively, you could contact the brokers for our scheme.

EricTheWeary

not_the_dj;647910" said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:



fretmeister said:

The main problem about fraudulently claiming that your gear is PAT tested is that when something happens your insurers will refuse to pay out.

If the "something" is serious enough you can then just hand over your house deeds to the victims.

Do it properly or don't do it at all.





PAT Testing certs are not worth the paper they are written on regardless of who fills them in. To start with a "visual inspection" is required, and that's for the existence and quality of the insulation on the mains lead. Secondly, the "meter" checks the resistance between the earth pin of the plug and the equipment's chassis, and blows a rude raspberry in it's more than 0.5 Ohm. So then the PAT Tester wallah clicks the button that tells the "meter" that the mains lead is 3m or more long, so the meter gets more forgiving and passes it. The man then scribbles something illegible on the sticker and applies it to the equipment.



It's all BLX. Self-respecting musicians maintain their gear and don't need to be told when something becomes substandard.










Irrelevant if the venue you're playing at insists on it.

It's not happened to me personally but IIRC it was either* @erictheweary or @rocknrolldave that had a gig canned because their gear wasn't PAT tested. 

*edit, it was erictheweary, so sorry to rocknrolldave for getting a bat signal....still you play a lot of fancy weddings don't you, so what's your experience of this?

bloody hell that's am old story! We offered to play a charidee gig and then told we couldn't play it unless we had everything PAT ( free venue but council run). So, it would have cost us £60 and upwards for this. Could have deducted this from the money raised I guess but that wouldn't have looked good. I wouldn't have minded paying for my own and as a future investment in the band it might have made sense but it was an argument I wasn't going to win!

Never been asked for PAT or PLI certs playing a gig. Do venues not have PLI anyway? We have to have it at work now as members of the public come in ( public buildings used to be excempt from PLI until relatively recently).
Given the concerning state of the wiring in some pubs being asked for PAT would seem cheeky.