Why is 6/8 more awesome than 4/4?

PolarityMan

It unquestionably is but why?

Phil_aka_Pip

12/8 would be even more awesome, having 4 beats to the bar.whereas 6/8 has only 2

But to be more helpful, I think it's the swing thing you get when you subdivide each beat into 3 (as opposed to 2, or 4). tbh I think it's why I can't play straight rock'n'roll, or funk. My semiquavers are crap, but my triplets are pretty good

Ché

viz

I think of time signatures like jam.

4/4: Strawberry, raspberry
3/4: Marmalade
5/4: Apricot
2/4: Chocolate spread
2/2: Peanut butter
6/8: Blackcurrant
7/4: Bovril
7/8: Marmite

Is that the same system as everybody else?

bluechargeboy

viz said:

I think of time signatures like jam.

4/4: Strawberry, raspberry
3/4: Marmalade
5/4: Apricot
2/4: Chocolate spread
2/2: Peanut butter
6/8: Blackcurrant
7/4: Bovril
7/8: Marmite

Is that the same system as everybody else?

At first I thought you were correlating syllables with beats, and wondering how you stretched "apricot" into five syllables! B-)

thecolourbox

6/8 is just 2/4 with triplet quavers, if your beat accents are correct

PolarityMan

We often use actual triplets in 6 as well so feel wise it's nothing like 4/4 in triplets

Phil_aka_Pip

PolarityMan said:

We often use actual triplets in 6 as well so feel wise it's nothing like 4/4 in triplets

Is that 18/8 or two bars of 9/8?

PolarityMan

Um...neither...it's 6/8 its not like the bar gets longer when you play more notes.

Phil_aka_Pip

PolarityMan said:

Um...neither...it's 6/8 its not like the bar gets longer when you play more notes.

depends on the time value of the notes. Are you dividing your 2 main pulses into 6 semiquavers each? (this would be so much easier if keyboards could write music notation)

Teetonetal

PolarityMan said:

It unquestionably is but why?

No, it's not.

thecolourbox said:

6/8 is just 2/4 with triplet quavers, if your beat accents are correct

No, no no..

 6/8 is not 2/4 triplets Technically the counting would be different. 1 2 3 4 5 6  vs  1 e a 2 e a. and as above playing triplets in 6/8 is nothing like playing triplets in 2/4

the whole point with time sigs is that whilst things might sound the same they would be written differently, so tempo is also set differently...

and the nail in the coffin:

6/8 can have 3 crotchets (technically the middle crotchet should be 2 quavers tied...), 2/4 cannot possibly have 3 crotchets..

PolarityMan

What I'm saying is that we quite often have a piece in 6/8 where the phrase is predominantly in eight notes but there are also sixteenth note triplets.

So the presence of a real triplet kind of prevents you counting it as 4/4 triplet time.

PolarityMan

Teetonetal said:

PolarityMan said:

It unquestionably is but why?

No, it's not.

Is too.

Phil_aka_Pip

6/8 has 2 main pulses to the bar, each subdivided into 3. 2/4 also has 2 main pulses to the bar, each of which may be subdivided into 3 by the use of the triplet. They are indeed counted differently, but most of us would agree they feel the same IF the 2/4 is played at n crotchets to the minute and the 6/8 is played at n dotted crotchets to the minute. Which time sig you write in depends on whether the default subdivision of the beat is into 3 - so use 6/8, and if it is only occasional then use 2/4.

@PolarityMan I'd suggest what would stop you counting it in 4/4 is that you've only got 2 beats to the bar, irrespective of how you subdivided them.

PolarityMan

You can also get waltzy feeling, 6/8 too. I've never seen anyone attempt to count 6/8 in 2/4.

Phil_aka_Pip

waltz = 3/4. It would take a hugely slow 6/8 to sound like a waltz, and you'd have to accent the 4 just the same as the 1 to get it to sound like two bars of 3/4. NO. definitely not. 6/8 != 3/4 by any stretch of the imagination. See Eric Taylor's The AB Guide to Music Theory.

thecolourbox

Teetonetal said:

thecolourbox said:

6/8 is just 2/4 with triplet quavers, if your beat accents are correct

No, no no..

 6/8 is not 2/4 triplets Technically the counting would be different. 1 2 3 4 5 6  vs  1 e a 2 e a. and as above playing triplets in 6/8 is nothing like playing triplets in 2/4

the whole point with time sigs is that whilst things might sound the same they would be written differently, so tempo is also set differently...

With respect, I disagree. I've generally counted 2/4 or 6/8 as 2 beats because on really long pieces of music it's a pain in the ass to tap quickly 6 times a bar when you only really need to tap twice slowly, and usually with my feet which cannot speak! So what you call the taps is largely irrelevant in my experience. But even if you do count the quavers (in 6/8) or the triplet-quavers (in 2/4), if you count 1 2 3 4 5 6 or 1 e a 2 e a with your feet it sounds the same. The bigger accent is on the 1st of the taps,  the lesser accent on the 4th of the taps. 

Teetonetal said:

and the nail in the coffin:

6/8 can have 3 crotchets (technically the middle crotchet should be 2 quavers tied...), 2/4 cannot possibly have 3 crotchets..

Yes it can, triplet crotchets and contrarywise you can have duplet-quavers to total the same as 3/8 (or half a 6/8)

thecolourbox

Example of duplet quavers in a compound time sig (this is in 9/8 but the point is the same)

https://notesfromapianist.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/clair-de-lune.gif

I'll see if i can find a triplet crotchets in 2/4 example

PolarityMan

Phil_aka_Pip said:

waltz = 3/4. It would take a hugely slow 6/8 to sound like a waltz, and you'd have to accent the 4 just the same as the 1 to get it to sound like two bars of 3/4. NO. definitely not. 6/8 != 3/4 by any stretch of the imagination. See Eric Taylor's The AB Guide to Music Theory.

Not enough for it to sound like a waltz but there are definitely parts in 6/8 that feel closer to 3/4 than 2/4. There's also a common accent pattern on 1 and 5.

PolarityMan

thecolourbox said:

, if you count 1 2 3 4 5 6 or 1 e a 2 e a with your feet it sounds the same. The bigger accent is on the 1st of the taps,  the lesser accent on the 4th of the taps. 

Counting "1 e a 2 e a" tends to produce a lesser accent on 2 usually.  Counting 1 2 3 4 5 6 tends to produce only an accent on the 1. It might not be supposed to but it often does.

thecolourbox

I think his point on the waltz thing is that if 6/8 is performed correctly it should not be the same as a waltz because the accents should not be equal on quavers 1 and 4, rather that 1 is stronger than 4. I know what you mean though a lot of bands tend to miss this out so it sounds like a waltz more than it would do if done correctly

PolarityMan said:

thecolourbox said:

, if you count 1 2 3 4 5 6 or 1 e a 2 e a with your feet it sounds the same. The bigger accent is on the 1st of the taps,  the lesser accent on the 4th of the taps. 

Counting "1 e a 2 e a" tends to produce a lesser accent on 2 usually.  Counting 1 2 3 4 5 6 tends to produce only an accent on the 1. It might not be supposed to but it often does.

Then it's wrongly accented if the accent is only on quaver 1! 6/8 is compound (ie dotted note beats) duple (being two of said beats to bar)