plugin packages - WAVES etc - which are best, especially for reverb and multiband compressors

ToneControl

sooner or later, I will need to move off my old Protools TDM DAW, I've had it for 13 years, and support is vanishing

Annoyingly, the TDM and RTAS plugins I paid a fortune for will be useless

Some of them are very nice, and it pains me to lose them

My favourites have either not been migrated to AAX, VST, etc (e.g. TC X3 multband compressor). or they are not offering any discount on the high, full new price

I am likely to use Ableton on PC and Mac, maybe Logic, and also probably Protools (Not native or HDX)

So: I wondered what effects and plugins are a good long term investment

I do have NI Komplete Ultimate 9, so that's the instruments covered

also some Arturia synths and IK ones

I will lose half my amp sims, but the best ones are IK and NI, so they are AAX/VST too

The plugins in Ableton suite seem pretty weak compare to Protools ones

I have got a funny old package from WAVES called ProFX Plus Native, which includes some odd effects

I don't find their GUIs as easy as Avid ones, but better than IK's

Anyway, for me to upgrade ProFX Plus Native and GTR to WAVEs Gold is only $234

But even better, to Platinum is $502

these include lots of reverbs, multiband compressors and other stuff

So: you guys who've always used DAWs that are not Protools TDM, are Waves the best option for me?

guitarfishbay

Fabfilter Pro MB for multiband, I find it faster to use than C6. In fact all FF stuff is worth a look, I think there are demo versions.

For reverbs check out Valhalla DSP, there are demos and they're $50 to purchase.

I have Waves Gold and use H Delay, but not sure what else. I prefer the FF stuff for general utility plugins. I like some other Waves plugs like CLA comps but they're not in Gold.

Drew_TNBD

I really like IK Multimedia's compressors right now - the BusComp and White comp model are really good.

HollowAxis

guitarfishbay said:

Fabfilter Pro MB for multiband, I find it faster to use than C6. In fact all FF stuff is worth a look, I think there are demo versions.

For reverbs check out Valhalla DSP, there are demos and they're $50 to purchase.

I have Waves Gold and use H Delay, but not sure what else. I prefer the FF stuff for general utility plugins. I like some other Waves plugs like CLA comps but they're not in Gold.

The whole fabfilter pack of plugins is great.

The only other full pack I have is from Soundtoys.
That's also really great, although it has been almost a year since they said version 5 was coming out.

Outside of full packs I have the compressor and tape emulators from u-he and they are superb.
Some reverb things from audioease.
Metering and some other things form Brainworx.
A few piano and drum vsts from native instruments.

Winny_Pooh

Any pressing reason you need to upgrade?

ToneControl

Winny_Pooh said:

Any pressing reason you need to upgrade?

Basically, RTAS is not supported beyond protools v10, I use PTv8. It will be unsupported if I move past win7 I think

Native instruments have stopped supporting RTAS, so updates to kontakt etc no longer have RTAS, therefore recent kontakt libraries are unreadable

so not urgent, but I need a plan, and if the TDM hardware breaks, I can buy cards to replace them cheaply now, but it might be an idea to start migrating sessions onto a new DAW (or the cheaper version of protools), bouncing down tracks that depend on plugins that are obsolete

Winny_Pooh

So you can use up to PT10 on Win 7 (my setup) with your existing rtas plugs and your previous versions of Kontakt?
Am I missing something?

ToneControl

Winny_Pooh said:

So you can use up to PT10 on Win 7 (my setup) with your existing rtas plugs and your previous versions of Kontakt?
Am I missing something?

I could do, but upgrade to PT10 HD would cost me £1200 from Avid, and would stop me buying new Kontakt libraries, so not ideal. might be better to start building a non-HD setup now

If I move to non-HD protools, I have the problem that my favourite reverbs and multiband compressor are TDM, and I lose them, so I may as well go to PT11 or 12 if it's a similar price

Winny_Pooh

Ditching protools for a DAW with vsts will be cheaper going forward I guess as you can still use vsts you already have. Searching on gearslutz will be good re what works with your current hardware. 192's & core/accell card?
Fwiw I know the waves stuff well but don't try everything else out there.
I could get by with just:
CLA bundle, API bundle, puigchild & puigtecs, maxxbass/renn bass
& one or two good 3rd party verbs and a nice limiter. You looked at klanghelm?

ToneControl

Winny_Pooh said:

Ditching protools for a DAW with vsts will be cheaper going forward I guess as you can still use vsts you already have. Searching on gearslutz will be good re what works with your current hardware. 192's & core/accell card?
Fwiw I know the waves stuff well but don't try everything else out there.
I could get by with just:
CLA bundle, API bundle, puigchild & puigtecs, maxxbass/renn bass
& one or two good 3rd party verbs and a nice limiter. You looked at klanghelm?

96IO + Core & DSP (HD2)

I haven't looked at much outside Protools world since I bought into it with Session 8 in the late 90s

that Waves platinum bundle is list $2k, and they are offering to me as a $500 upgrade, so it sounds good

it includes most of the top 14 wave plugins that someone listed here http://getthatprosound.com/top-14-must-have-waves-plugins/ ;

I'm assuming that since the WAVE stuff works on TDM & RTAS (Mac and PC), AAX, AU, VST,

then it's a good deal for me: I can start mastering with it now, and not worry when I move those sessions to Protools non-HD

Danny1969

Do you actually need to upgrade anything ? I mean if you use your music computer for making music you can carry on as you are or is there something you need that isn't available as a TDM or RTAS plug ? 

I have an HD2  \ 192 system running on PT10 and I've gotten remix work with that purely because I can open HD sessions and other local studios couldn't. For making music I could still happily use the G4 we have with a Mix core card and 3 DSP farm cards. Native is powerful these days but your miss the zero latency on big sessions with a lot of monitor mixes . 

I sometimes think we upgrade for nothing. I've never recorded anything that relied on a plugin to sound good and apart from some Massey stuff I pretty much use the stock Digi suite, the only exception would be tuning vocals and some drum love from Slate for the metal guys

ToneControl

I know, I don't urgently need to upgrade, I just want to plan my roadmap into the future, hopefully with quieter host machines, and HD won't be viable in a few years if I'm using NI stuff extensively. My Dell T7400 won't last for ever, and it's very noisy and uses a lot of electricity

btw I never managed to get the latency very low using the recommended windows PCs

my thought was to get a PC with an RME HDSPe AIO, they have very low latency, 

I often run a lot of tracks, but it's home studio stuff, so don't need many ins or outs, and there's no commercial usage

my favourite plugins are TC X3, nice reverbs, amp sims, synths and samplers

I find a lot of stuff really benefits from a good multiband compressor

guitarfishbay

http://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-mb-multiband-compressor-plug-in Watch the video demo to see if it does what you need.

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

http://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-mb-multiband-compressor-plug-in Watch the video demo to see if it does what you need.

I like that

guitarfishbay

IMO FF make the best utility plugins.

They're not the cheapest, but I think they're easier to use and perform better than what equivalent plugins you get in Waves Gold, plus you can install them on any computer you have.  http://www.fabfilter.com/support/faq/1/can-i-use-my-fabfilter-plug-ins-on-multiple-computers-using-just-one-license-key

I would recommend Pro Q2 as well if you feel you need a general utility EQ.  I find natural phase mode very useful on high gain guitars as it stops them sounding hollow/phasy as quickly when doing more drastic EQing.  http://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-2-equalizer-plug-in

If I was to recommend a bundle this is the most useful one, the only other plugin of theirs I think is definitely worth getting is Pro DS (de-esser).  http://www.fabfilter.com/shop/mastering-bundle ;

I have Saturn and Pro G too but I don't tend to use either.  Not because they're bad, but because largely what I need to gate I just do via manual automation/chopping and I rarely want to use mutliband saturation.

They don't do sales very often unlike Waves who have regular sales.  The cheapest way to buy FF depends on exchange rate I think, either from a site like www.audiodeluxe.com (you need an account to see discount prices) or get an existing FF customer to refer you for 10% off their online store prices (the person who refers gets £8 credit).

If you own plugins with them you get a discount on all subsequent purchases, and that is calculated relative to the amount of plugins you already own.

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

IMO FF make the best utility plugins.

They're not the cheapest, but I think they're easier to use and perform better than what equivalent plugins you get in Waves Gold, plus you can install them on any computer you have.  http://www.fabfilter.com/support/faq/1/can-i-use-my-fabfilter-plug-ins-on-multiple-computers-using-just-one-license-key

I would recommend Pro Q2 as well if you feel you need a general utility EQ.  I find natural phase mode very useful on high gain guitars as it stops them sounding hollow/phasy as quickly when doing more drastic EQing.  http://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-q-2-equalizer-plug-in

If I was to recommend a bundle this is the most useful one, the only other plugin of theirs I think is definitely worth getting is Pro DS (de-esser).  http://www.fabfilter.com/shop/mastering-bundle ;

I have Saturn and Pro G too but I don't tend to use either.  Not because they're bad, but because largely what I need to gate I just do via manual automation/chopping and I rarely want to use mutliband saturation.

They don't do sales very often unlike Waves who have regular sales.  The cheapest way to buy FF depends on exchange rate I think, either from a site like www.audiodeluxe.com (you need an account to see discount prices) or get an existing FF customer to refer you for 10% off their online store prices (the person who refers gets £8 credit).

If you own plugins with them you get a discount on all subsequent purchases, and that is calculated relative to the amount of plugins you already own.

thanks for that 

I think I'll get the Waves platinum upgrade, to get loads of stuff incl 3 reverbs for £300 or so,

then have a look at that FF multiband separately

Heartfeltdawn

I wouldn't touch Waves at all. 

The Ableton plugs are deceptively good once you get into them. Initial reactions aren't great but they work within that environment so well. For electronic music and experimental stuff they're good but I'm imagining you're far more on the guitar front than EDM.

Going for the RME HDSPe AIO would give you very low latency but the AD/DA is not that great. USB interfaces have made huge strides in the last few years. When I switched from a PCI interface to a USB interface, I did so expecting poor results. I didn't get it. The SPL Crimson has performed superbly and the conversion is light years ahead of the RME PCI cards and Multiface I had. 

There's so many great small plug in companies to choose from now. 

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

I wouldn't touch Waves at all. 

The Ableton plugs are deceptively good once you get into them. Initial reactions aren't great but they work within that environment so well. For electronic music and experimental stuff they're good but I'm imagining you're far more on the guitar front than EDM.

Going for the RME HDSPe AIO would give you very low latency but the AD/DA is not that great. USB interfaces have made huge strides in the last few years. When I switched from a PCI interface to a USB interface, I did so expecting poor results. I didn't get it. The SPL Crimson has performed superbly and the conversion is light years ahead of the RME PCI cards and Multiface I had. 

There's so many great small plug in companies to choose from now. 

Do you not like the Waves stuff? I wasn't bothered since I had many Digidesign plugins, but I don't want to buy into that again since I can't use them in Logic & Live

I had Live 8 - just used basic stuff, just upgraded to Live suite 9, but so far the ableton instruments are pretty poor compared to the NI Komplete ones, so I'm concerned that the FX are likely to be weak too. Anyway, most of my DAW work is in Protools, so I can't rely on the  Ableton ones anyway

here's a latency analysis I found http://dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency3.htm

the guy seems very convincing - and he says a lot of makers have poor firmware & software

the KA6 I bought for small scale stuff is high for a USB IO

My thought was to use the RME HDSPe AIO with external AD/DA, using the ADAT optical link - I assume (so far) that it takes old-school ADAT IO 

Do you have any reviews that mention the AD/DA on the AIO? I'm new to looking for these things

the SPL looks nice btw

guitarfishbay

I'm only familiar with Logic so that is what I'll comment on -

Personally I think what comes stock in Logic is pretty decent anyway.  It is probably worth finding out what you think is lacking first before buying a big bundle.

For my money another EQ can be worth a look, one that offers more bands, processing options and the option of MS in the same window (I can't remember if you can do that in Logic X now because I just go straight to Pro Q2 these days).

The Logic Multiband is ok but Pro MB and C6 have more options and functionality.

Single band compression character really varies by compressor, so you'll just have to experiment there.  The ones in Logic are usable. 

For reverbs I think space designer has a lot of good sounding IRs already, plus you can load others.  I prefer the Valhalla reverbs to the algorithmic reverbs that come stock with Logic because they are easier to get a smoother and more realistic sound from IME.

For delay I tend to use H delay over delay designer in Logic, but mostly because I prefer how the controls are laid out and I can use it quicker.

For limiters I only have Logic's, L1, and Pro L, and I feel I get the cleanest results from Pro L.

I don't tend to use much modulation to be honest, so I'm probably not the best person to comment on that.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

Do you not like the Waves stuff? I wasn't bothered since I had many Digidesign plugins, but I don't want to buy into that again since I can't use them in Logic & Live

I had Live 8 - just used basic stuff, just upgraded to Live suite 9, but so far the ableton instruments are pretty poor compared to the NI Komplete ones, so I'm concerned that the FX are likely to be weak too. Anyway, most of my DAW work is in Protools, so I can't rely on the  Ableton ones anyway

here's a latency analysis I found http://dawbench.com/audio-int-lowlatency3.htm

the guy seems very convincing - and he says a lot of makers have poor firmware & software

the KA6 I bought for small scale stuff is high for a USB IO

My thought was to use the RME HDSPe AIO with external AD/DA, using the ADAT optical link - I assume (so far) that it takes old-school ADAT IO 

Do you have any reviews that mention the AD/DA on the AIO? I'm new to looking for these things

the SPL looks nice btw

What external ADA unit did you have in mind? 

The general consensus over at Gearslutz is that the RME gear is the way forward for low latency but the conversion isn't great. I can only say that the Crimson utterly destroyed the Multiface and the HDSP9632 card I tested it against (and my old M-Audio Delta 66). 

The chap behind DAWbench does post on Gearslutz. Most modern units are fine on the latency front.  That list is already a year out of date and some of those units have received considerable driver upgrades. When the SPL Crimson was launched, the driver had issues but now runs very well (In Audiomulch, I've got it at 64 samples running at 1.4ms). Stuff like the Audient ID22 has also had a lot of driver upgrades and a big new upgrade is coming soon. 

The Komplete 6 is a good unit. Personally in that price bracket I'd take the Audient ID14 above it. Excellent preamps, decent driver, and good quality conversion. 

Drew_TNBD

Hmmm... that SPL Crimson looks interesting.