Toontrack Post-Rock

bingefeller

Any post-rock musicians on here that use any of the Toontrack drum products?  

http://www.toontrack.com/product/post-rock-ezx/

@drew_fx @randomhandclaps

Drew_TNBD

Yeah I looked at this earlier. It sounds pretty decent, but I don't think it would actually suit my stuff. I think Made of Metal plus a reverb plugin is probably more my thing!

HollowAxis

Pretty cool sounding.

bingefeller

Drew_fx said:

Yeah I looked at this earlier. It sounds pretty decent, but I don't think it would actually suit my stuff. I think Made of Metal plus a reverb plugin is probably more my thing!

Yeah they have probably taken the effort out of doing that, for people who don't have the know how.  I think most of the Toontrack drums are pre-eq'd and mixed to a certain extent.  

randomhandclaps

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

bingefeller

randomhandclaps said:

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

Ahh man, I wish I could programme drums that good.  

I tend to create a beat with EZDrummer first then search for similar beats and then edit from there.

I have been having some luck with Logic's built in drummers.  What I would do is create a drum track with them, then transform that track to midi then make it an EZDrummer track, although the sound quality of the built in drummers with Logic isn't that bad.  

Drew_TNBD

bingefeller said:

randomhandclaps said:

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

Ahh man, I wish I could programme drums that good.  

I tend to create a beat with EZDrummer first then search for similar beats and then edit from there.

I have been having some luck with Logic's built in drummers.  What I would do is create a drum track with them, then transform that track to midi then make it an EZDrummer track, although the sound quality of the built in drummers with Logic isn't that bad.  

Yeah I really like the Logic X Drummer. It's the only thing I miss from when I was using a Hackintosh. But it just wasn't stable enough, and I don't like Logic on the whole. I wish Studio One or Cubase had a similar thing.

The EZ Drummer 2 midi library is pretty good, but it doesn't do the auto-composition stuff for you.

Fretwired

I have EZ drummer but I don't tend to use it. I bought a Maschine Studio when NI had a special offer so I now tend to 'play' my drum parts on the pads. There are loads of features to add a human element and the product has a great work flow.

randomhandclaps

bingefeller said:

randomhandclaps said:

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

Ahh man, I wish I could programme drums that good.  

I tend to create a beat with EZDrummer first then search for similar beats and then edit from there.

I have been having some luck with Logic's built in drummers.  What I would do is create a drum track with them, then transform that track to midi then make it an EZDrummer track, although the sound quality of the built in drummers with Logic isn't that bad.  

To be honest mate I kind of wish I couldn't - well actually that is entirely accurate.  It's just when I first started working in studios drum programming was fairly new and I got really good at it meaning it was in demand.  Like a geek I spent a fucking age honing stuff, now it's not really necessary as everyone is using pre-played midi so kind of seems a bit of a waste in retrospect.  I still do like the control it gives me but I have a had a few people comment how they'd like me to show them but in truth I don't think it's worth the bother now.  By all means though if you want to have a crack and ever need any tips then just ask.

bingefeller

randomhandclaps said:

bingefeller said:

randomhandclaps said:

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

Ahh man, I wish I could programme drums that good.  

I tend to create a beat with EZDrummer first then search for similar beats and then edit from there.

I have been having some luck with Logic's built in drummers.  What I would do is create a drum track with them, then transform that track to midi then make it an EZDrummer track, although the sound quality of the built in drummers with Logic isn't that bad.  

To be honest mate I kind of wish I couldn't - well actually that is entirely accurate.  It's just when I first started working in studios drum programming was fairly new and I got really good at it meaning it was in demand.  Like a geek I spent a fucking age honing stuff, now it's not really necessary as everyone is using pre-played midi so kind of seems a bit of a waste in retrospect.  I still do like the control it gives me but I have a had a few people comment how they'd like me to show them but in truth I don't think it's worth the bother now.  By all means though if you want to have a crack and ever need any tips then just ask.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is drum fills - do you programme in a drum fill and then use the exact same fill again when you need it, or would you use variations of that fill?  

PolarityMan

randomhandclaps said:

bingefeller said:

randomhandclaps said:

I used Abbey Road drums (and occasionally Battery with my own library of samples) for everything because I am a control freak - no loops or pre-programmed midi here.

Ahh man, I wish I could programme drums that good.  

I tend to create a beat with EZDrummer first then search for similar beats and then edit from there.

I have been having some luck with Logic's built in drummers.  What I would do is create a drum track with them, then transform that track to midi then make it an EZDrummer track, although the sound quality of the built in drummers with Logic isn't that bad.  

To be honest mate I kind of wish I couldn't - well actually that is entirely accurate.  It's just when I first started working in studios drum programming was fairly new and I got really good at it meaning it was in demand.  Like a geek I spent a fucking age honing stuff, now it's not really necessary as everyone is using pre-played midi so kind of seems a bit of a waste in retrospect.  I still do like the control it gives me but I have a had a few people comment how they'd like me to show them but in truth I don't think it's worth the bother now.  By all means though if you want to have a crack and ever need any tips then just ask.

I still hand program. A load of the fills on our album that were performed by a real drummer are copies of my programming

Tbh I think you cant really write rock music properly without thinking about the interplay between the bass / drums / guitar. It's that kind of thing even when really subtle that lifts stuff from sounded a bit like karaoke for guitars to being a proper arrangement.

randomhandclaps

PolarityMan said:Tbh I think you cant really write rock music properly without thinking about the interplay between the bass / drums / guitar.

I agree with this.  Otherwise I feel I am writing a riff to the drums rather than programming drums to support a riff.

bingefeller said:

The only thing I can think of at the moment is drum fills - do you programme in a drum fill and then use the exact same fill again when you need it, or would you use variations of that fill?  

I'm really anal so never use the same fill twice.  Even if it's essential then it's a variant because drummers are usually have some form of ADHD and get bored. 

TBH years ago I would spend ages when I was travelling places listening on my iPod or in the car at what was going on in different drums tracks of tracks I liked, needed to emulate or just from genres I hadn't explored or understood before.  Then I would set about recreating them.  Very quickly you learn that much like playing guitar, certain phrases only work at certain tempos and what you thought would sound great just loses it's edge when sped up or slowed down.  I would also watch drummers in the studio (and still do when someone does something new) and try and understand how they think and move.  From there you learn certain things that drummer rely on and other things you thought they might do but don't in reality.

Because of that I probably have a basic set of licks and fills like any proper drummer and then I work from there dependent on the track.  I've programmed so many tracks over the years I approach most things with a basic idea but once that's down always try and experiment with something completely different.  The biggest difference between good and shit drums and fills is the micro adjustment of velocity and time.  Real fills are never in time and never perfect.   The real skill eventually is to hit that space between sounding too rigid and consistent to be real and too loose and inconsistent to be a drummer you'd actually employ. 

If you have any programmes that allow you to see captured 'real' midi (you can download some free ones from the internet too) it is really worth having a look at what actually goes on.  A drum kit is so limited that fills and expression are rarely about which drum hit, rather when and how it's hit.

PolarityMan

Do you shuffle stuff off the grid? I heavily tweak velocity especially during fills but I usually stop short of altering the note spacing during fills (using a swung grid not with standing).

Real fill tend to start of faster than the click and become slower over the length of the file but I've found the subtle difference is really hard to get right and I can get like 90% of the way there just making sure the velocity's work.

Actually the one tip I'd give for beginning drum programmers is using a velocity pattern on the hi-hat / ride. It's literally 30 secs of work and I reckon provides the biggest possible difference.