Checking a heating system

Phil_aka_Pip

Proposing to buy house, so hire a GasSafe "heating engineer" to inspect its central heating & hot water system. I wanted a written report:

Is it safe? Does it work? Any signs of worn components requiring replacement in near future? Cost estimates?

And received a report summarised as: "I couldn't start the boiler, it's knackered so I capped off the gas supply and btw 4 rads are leaking. £4.5 - 5k to fix" He could have been lying in order to get the order for the corrective work.

Sent copy to est agt, who forwarded it to seller, who then hired their usual gas man for a second opinion, which was "I went in and sparked up the boiler, it all works, woss problem?" He could have been lying because he's working for the house sellers. In any case he would have had to undo the capping off performed by the first bloke (assuming he did do as he said he did).

So now I don't know who to believe :x

Am willing to hire another GasSafe man for another inspection if I have to.

ESBlonde

Question,

would you buy a house with a suspect heating system and possible dangerous boiler. I'd say the first guy has no axe to grind and gave a professional report as I'd like to see when investing a lot of money on a home. The second guy may well have had little problem firing up the boiler but it's still old and there are 4 leaky radiators?

By law only a certified gas safe engineer can reconnect a gas supply once its been cut off.

ESBlonde

ESBlonde said:

Question,

would you buy a house with a suspect heating system and possible dangerous boiler. I'd say the first guy has no axe to grind and gave a professional report as I'd like to see when investing a lot of money on a home. The second guy may well have had little problem firing up the boiler but it's still old and there are 4 leaky radiators?

By law only a certified gas safe engineer can reconnect a gas supply once its been cut off.

PS.

Modern boilers are not renowned as being more reliable or longer lasting than old designs (efficiency aside). There was a bloke on the radio last week saying a top class boiler was £800-1200 and anything else was profiteering. OK new plumbing and control systems cost too but it sounds a lot for essentially a smallish house.

ICBM

I would get a third opinion. With such wildly differing reports you really don't know who to believe.

Phil_aka_Pip

To answer your Question, @ESBlonde, No. Allegedly the second bloke was also GasSafe. But if I'm not happy, I will back out of the deal.

The £estimate included rads, flushing, connecting my existing gas cooker where there was only a lekky one before. IIRC the boiler was £1500 - seems about right for a top-whack worst-case budget.

Phil_aka_Pip

ICBM said:

I would get a third opinion. With such wildly differing reports you really don't know who to believe.

I have already approached someone

Maxi

Sounds about right . The estate agent arranging a counter report ,I probably would'nt know which to trust either .

It sounds like a couple of half truths in any case ...the boiler probably is not totally knackered nor is it in good working order either . Both reports are probably exaggerated in apposition .

hywelg

Phil_aka_Pip said:

To answer your Question, @ESBlonde, No. Allegedly the second bloke was also GasSafe.

If he wasn't he should end up in court. Speak to HSE if it turns out he wasn't. AS regards your guy, a comment like 'its knackered' implies he didn't know why it wouldn't start. There will be a perfectly simple reason why it wouldn't fire up and you need to know that reason. Its unlikely to be more than one fault, but possible. Unless its a model that you can't get parts for old boilers are repairable unless the heat exchanger rots or similar. Just because its old it doesn't mean its dead. I have a 30 yr old Baxi that has had most of its replaceable parts renewed at some point, but it still keeps going, and passes inspections without problem. Efficient? probably not but £5k buys a lot of gas, and we're all going to have to go to electric boilers soon anyway.

I remember when we bought our house nearly 3 decades ago we got a specialist heating engineers report, very detailed and not just the check box sheet that a GasSafe inspection provides. It was worth the money as there was loads that needed sorting. We ended having a whole new system.

I would never trust an estate agent as far as I could chuck 'em. I don't doubt he has his own tame corgi who will colour a report to suit because he does the repairs/inspections for the lettings side of the estate agency. I would suggest a call to GasSafe though to check whether one inspector locking the supply off and then another doing nowt and removing that lock is permissible. As it is just a club that plumbers pay to join in order to coin it I doubt you'll get much ammunition for haggling.

dafuzz

I'm curious - what did the first guy say apart from 'knackered?' In order for him to justify capping the boiler off it has to be classified as Immediately Dangerous and that means there's something really fucking wrong eg big gaping hole in the primary flue / combustion chamber on a room sealed system / etc. At least, those are the sort of things you can tell without getting the boiler going.

octatonic

This is precisely why I have a gas safe engineer on the payroll.

Phil_aka_Pip

The second opinion was obtained from the seller's "usual gas man". he doesn't work for the agent. he works for the seller.

....................................................................................................................................

The first opinion was as follows: Quote from the first communication

Our engineer Mr. **********  ************ (gas safe: 3239519) visited the property on the 14th October 2013 to carry out a gas safety check.  ********* has reported that the boiler is unsafe to use, he was unable to turn the boiler on and the casing of the boiler had turned brown. As the boiler was seen as unsafe to use it was *******’s responsibility to turn off the gas at the property and cap it. 

Unquote. A more detailed communication followed:

Quote

• The boiler would not light up 

• The casing was brown, which suggests there has been blowing from the boiler into the case 

• There was not a room thermostat 

• There was no gas point in the kitchen to install a cooker 

• All of the pipework needs updating to be in line with current standard 

• Four of the radiators were leaking and rusty and are in need of replacement 

Unquote

I suspected there was no gas point in the kitchen. At least his subsequent quotation itemised putting one in. I remain unsure about what might be wrong with the pipework unless any of it is either blocked or leaking. However the radiator condition cannot be argued with - it is either as he says or it isn't and you don't need to be an expert to be able to tell whether the leak is from a joint or from the rad itself.

IIRC I was told on the phone that each room has a thermostatic valve on its rad, so there is no need for a room thermostat. That's OK, it was like that in the previous house I had. It is also easily verifiable.

octatonic

I'd use the report for screwing the vendor down on price.

Phil_aka_Pip

octatonic said:

I'd use the report for screwing the vendor down on price.

That procedure has already begun.

octatonic

IMHO you won't get the full amount required to fix it off the top.

You might, but usually not.

I go for 60%, give or take.

hywelg

Phil_aka_Pip said:

The second opinion was obtained from the seller's "usual gas man". he doesn't work for the agent. he works for the seller.

....................................................................................................................................

The first opinion was as follows: Quote from the first communication

Our engineer Mr. **********  ************ (gas safe: 3239519) visited the property on the 14th October 2013 to carry out a gas safety check.  ********* has reported that the boiler is unsafe to use, he was unable to turn the boiler on and the casing of the boiler had turned brown. As the boiler was seen as unsafe to use it was *******’s responsibility to turn off the gas at the property and cap it. 

Unquote. A more detailed communication followed:

Quote

• The boiler would not light up 

• The casing was brown, which suggests there has been blowing from the boiler into the case 

• There was not a room thermostat 

• There was no gas point in the kitchen to install a cooker 

• All of the pipework needs updating to be in line with current standard 

• Four of the radiators were leaking and rusty and are in need of replacement 

Unquote

I suspected there was no gas point in the kitchen. At least his subsequent quotation itemised putting one in. I remain unsure about what might be wrong with the pipework unless any of it is either blocked or leaking. However the radiator condition cannot be argued with - it is either as he says or it isn't and you don't need to be an expert to be able to tell whether the leak is from a joint or from the rad itself.

IIRC I was told on the phone that each room has a thermostatic valve on its rad, so there is no need for a room thermostat. That's OK, it was like that in the previous house I had. It is also easily verifiable.

I'm sorry to say the report you have is lacking in detail and a little contradictory and poorly written. If the boiler was unsafe why was he trying to get it to light up? The report should list the boiler make and model, detail of the faults found, saying the casing is brown is not helpful, 'evidence of a water leak leading to rust on the casing' would have been a better way to phrase it if thats what he meant. He should have detailed what aspects of the piping did not meet current standards. He should have detailed where the leaks were coming from on the raditors, valves? leading to damp causing the rust? or have they rotted through?

If you really want to beat the vendors down hard I'm afraid you might need a more professionally written report.

chillidoggy

If you reckon that when an estate agent opens his trap, he's lying, then you won't go too far wrong. If subsequently it's proved he wasn't, consider it a bonus.

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

If you reckon that when an estate agent opens his trap, he's lying, then you won't go too far wrong. If subsequently it's proved he wasn't, consider it a miracle, or a sign that the end of the world is nigh.

Edited for accuracy.

bertie

hywelg said:

I'm sorry to say the report you have is lacking in detail and a little contradictory and poorly written. If the boiler was unsafe why was he trying to get it to light up? The report should list the boiler make and model, detail of the faults found, saying the casing is brown is not helpful, 'evidence of a water leak leading to rust on the casing' would have been a better way to phrase it if thats what he meant. He should have detailed what aspects of the piping did not meet current standards. He should have detailed where the leaks were coming from on the raditors, valves? leading to damp causing the rust? or have they rotted through?

If you really want to beat the vendors down hard I'm afraid you might need a more professionally written report.

this -