Sus & Add chords and chord extensions

Clarky

mike_l said:

viz said:

You're all right, yeah? Theory can be useful, it's not necessary, and it's not sufficient.

Funnily, the teacher I had focused on theory a little too much, and not quite enough on actually playing...

that's a bad thing... the playing has to come first..

like learning a language.. you don't throw someone into all of the rules of grammar on day one..

you get them saying stuff.. like "giz a large beer please, mister"..

and along the way you add little bits of theory here and there to help things make sense

mike_l

@Clarky Yep, part of me wishes I'd quit the lessons before I did, and gone to a more technical/technique-type teacher, as opposed to the teacher I took lessons from, who was trying to push me away from the music I love and enjoy playing. Most specifically jazz, which, as I've said a lot of times before, I don't enjoy.

In hindsight (Yep, I know it's 20/20) I think I'd rather have had a teacher who made me learn some different songs, and use that as a method for teaching different techniques and the theory behind why which notes and chords were played.

I'm not big on classical, but I'd rather have learned some classical, and the associated theory and techniques over jazz.

I don't want to appear to be slagging a specific genre, I'm not. I just prefer other styles and genres, and don't like being pushed into playing (or doing) something I don't enjoy.

viz

Clarky and Frankus, you are both very musical. I reckon you would both really love to have a real chat together. Go for it!

Barney

i think theory is a good thing for showing you how something is done or options of what to do but dosnt create music and never will..thers loads of players that are really good on the theory side off things but not very good players ...and people who dont know a thing about theory and can blow you away with their playing.

i dont think its a good idea to judge how good a player is with what they know...theory can work if its worked on and not just understood....

Clarky

viz said:

Clarky and Frankus, you are both very musical. I reckon you would both really love to have a real chat together. Go for it!

we already have done at one of the GasFest thingies....

thinking back actually.. that was an absolutely awesome night all round...

Clarky

that's a good point Barney..

you can learn theory by reading a book...

but you can only learn to play by playing..

some folk use the theory as a means to and end..

it's kinda like the tail wagging the dog..

the academic side of music is a nice thing to have down..

can be really useful.. for all sorts of things.. including writing / composition..

it cannot however replace instinct and a feeling for what your are doing..

it can simply augment it by offering up more options..

I think this is where some folk go wrong with it...

as soon as you start treating it like a strict set of rules to be obeyed you will effectively have your creativity bound and gaged..

frankus

Clarky said:

frankus said:

Clarky, in your example you and your friend are revelling in your geekdom (don't expect me to judge you harshly for that) - it's fun to do.

It can also be a distraction, or coping mechanism from the feelings the music is evoking for whatever reason.

I've certainly known both... and also laid down and just enjoyed my hair standing on end (Sea and Sinbad's Ship). Of all the experiences the one I'd prefer to target is the last, I think that's being in the moment, as soon as the brain is involved pop! out of the moment.

This might be contributing to my non-musician status

you are sooooo wide of the mark here it's unbelievable

I [like many musicians] listen to music with two different perspectives..

one, like everyone is simply to be the audience.. to be entertained..

the other is as a musician.. and one trying to be a creative one..

when I hear something that has a profound impact on me.. I want to know what it is.. how it works...

I want to understand it so I can add it to my creative tool kit..

it's not geeky.. it's simply 'jeez.. I love that.. I need to know how to do it"

when I first heard the 2nd movement of Sonata Moonlight, the 4th chord sent shivers down my spine..

I needed to know what it was and why it did that...

knowing the chord in isolation was not enough.. because it don't tell you how to use it..

at a later time, having figured out that is was a major triad on the flattened super tonic in 1st inversion, I worked out that is was behaving as a substitution for chord IV.. and a staggeringly beautiful one at that...

since then I've written pieces of music [rock music] that contain this chord in it's original and correct context...

many years later [when I was at Uni] in a lecture, this chord came up again.. and they told me its name..

a Neapolitan 6th

and having understood it and spend a lot of time experimenting with it.. 

more to the point, having understood it's impact on the mood of the music and so how to use it to great effect, just made me adore this chord all the more..

this was never geekdom being revelled in.

it was simply a desire to understand something that amazed me, well enough so that I could use it to generate specific moods within in my own compositions...

OK, first off - what mark am I wide of?

Secondly, you finding it unbelievable is the gulf I can't bridge - so who can?

"Like many musicians" - you know that bit in Family Guy - It's a Trap! (the remake of ROTJ) where Herbert (aka Obi Wan) replies to Yoda's revelation "there is another Skywalker" ... "I know, I've got the force too, ya know" - that! I listen to lots of music too, ya know.

I appreciate, from what you've written, how passionate you are about your view of music, but it's not the only view and whilst I appreciate it is a hard-earned and a broad experience that alone doesn't increase it's validity, it seems to simply endears it to you more - perhaps making it harder to appreciate the vast array of alternative views all with their different uses. I say that because your disbelief serves no purpose except to indicate intolerance ;0)

As for GASFest - I think it's fair to say I was wasted for a mixture of reasons... also at GASFest was James Le Hurray, who's similarly blinged up with musical qualifications and a multi-instrumentalist - his views of music are radically different to your own. There is one true way - and it's each persons personal journey - it's great to inform that but not great to attempt to guide that

Clarky

Frankus - I totally understand where you're coming from now...

"wide of the mark": all I wanted to do was to understand something that amazed me.. I thought you missed that point and reduced it to geekdom.. basically.. "look at how much I know about this".. which was never the point.. the point was that when something touches me I simply want to know everything about it.. want to be able to do it and use it.. it fascinates me..

I do appreciate that there are lots of differing approaches to music and musicianship..

and I'm always open to variety and new stuff [which is one of the reasons I play a few different instruments and have studied many]

I'm actually a lot less one dimensional and rigid than you seem to think..

frankus

Than I seem to think...

I'm leaving this discussion now, it's been derailed and that's a shame.

I had every intention of not contributing to the thread because I didn't want to disrupt the flow of ideas.

So get back on course soon, chaps

ChristophEar

@mike_l, re: OP: Nice post! Good explanation

Enjoyed reading the ensuing discussion.

On the usefulness-of-theory front, in my opinion it normally boils down to whether you've connected the theory with the corresponding playing and listening skills.

• Just learn the theory: Of little use to any practising musician.
  

• Learn the theory and the playing skills which correspond? Broadens your abilities but playing can be lifeless, dull or formulaic.
  

• Learn the theory, and the playing skills, and connect the two by training your ear? Now it starts to get exciting! When you do it this way, studying up on theory is unquestionably useful for advancing your craft.
  

frankus said:

Agreed, knowledge is always good.. however, I think the knowledge of how to apply that knowledge is worth a little bit more.

I also rate experience over acquired knowledge as the application and knowledge have to go hand in hand where as acquired knowledge rarely gives the why as well as the how.

mike_l

@ChristophEar ; thank you.