LR Baggs Anthem vs Lyric vs Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend

AngryGoldfish

I'm probably going to be purchasing a Furch G20CM soon. I'm keen to purchase from Richard's Guitars as I appreciate what they stand for. Richard has offered to install a Fishman Ellipse Matrix Blend in the Furch and seems to swear by it. In my research, the LR Baggs Lyric sounded infinitely better than the Fishman, and it's said to be a superior sounding unit. They're around the same price as well. Can anyone offer a few opinions on it? I'm pretty much solely an electric player, but I've been playing Nick Cave and Avett Brothers songs on my Strat for too long. I'll be playing live in small quiet pubs with one other player.

Also, as a side note, the Furch G20CM is €750 from Thomann and the Lyric is €320. With free shipping that will be €1070. There is a tech local to me that does OK work. I'd say I could install the Lyric for €50-100 with a setup. That's roughly €1150. From Richard's Guitars, because of the exchange rate, it will cost closer to €1250. I don't mind this as I'd rather buy from Richard, who was lovely. The only problem is the Fishman. He doesn't stock LR Baggs or K&K. What do you folks reckon I should do? Either go with the cheaper option and get the Lyric/Anthem from a massive corporation with no personal touch, or pay more from Richard and settle for the Fishman? I could also just buy the Furch from Richard's guitars without a pickup, buy the Lyric from Thomann and then have a local guy install it.

Thoughts?

ICBM

Get a plain Fishman AG094 (or AG125, depending on the bridge saddle width) and an endpin jack in the guitar - nothing else - and a Fishman Aura Spectrum outboard preamp.

Don't fit a lovely acoustic guitar you may well have for a lifetime with internal electrics that will be obsolete in ten years, whatever company makes them.

If you haven't researched it yet, the Aura is a modelling system which reproduces mic'd acoustic sounds, and works best when given a pure undersadddle transducer signal. It also may be obsolete in ten years, but if it is then you simply replace it with whatever improved version comes out.

There's also the LR Baggs Para DI if you do prefer a more straightforward analogue system.

crunchman

I've got a Martin that came factory fitted with a Fishman Ellipse Blend.  It's a really good pickup.  The mic blend makes it sound a lot better than any other acoustic pickup I've had (and I've had Headway, Fishman Rare Earth, K&K Pure Mini).  Through a decent PA or acoustic amp it will sound very good.

Mine is about 8 or 9 years old so it might not be exactly the same as the latest model though.

As far as I can see the preamp isn't anything that's full of alien digital technology, so it won't date in the same way that some of the digital Aura types are likely to.  I don't think there is a lot to wrong with them.

If you do go the Aura route, as ICBM says it's better to do it outboard as that will date.

ICBM

crunchman said:

As far as I can see the preamp isn't anything that's full of alien digital technology, so it won't date in the same way that some of the digital Aura types are likely to.  I don't think there is a lot to wrong with them.

You wouldn't think so, but one of the reasons I'm so against onboard electrics is that I see a small but significant number of dead electro-acoustic preamps. OK, if it's a non-invasive system you could replace it with another similar non-invasive one if you can't repair it or get an exact replacement in years to come.

But to me, no onboard system ever sounds as good as a properly-mic'ed (externally) acoustic guitar, and internal mics just tend to increase feedback problems, so I can't see the point in making things more complicated than they need to be when the result is no better than a decent passive pickup and an outboard box which can be replaced as and when needed.

The better the acoustic, the more I think this.

AngryGoldfish

Well, I'm torn. The Fishman AG 094, it's a piezo pickup, correct? I've not heard any piezo pickups I've ever liked, on electrics or acoustics. Does the preamp alter/improve the sound of the unit?

Monkeybone

I have an Anthem SL in my Taylor GS Mini, at the moment I am really struggling with it. Sometimes it can sound bloody gorgeous, other times it's a chore to get a decent tone from it through our sound guy/lead guitarist's PA. Couple that with the fact it is painfully quiet, and it's easy to see why I've gone back to using my Crafter SA for acoustic gigs (coincidentally, which uses and LR Baggs Element).

crunchman

ICBM said:

But to me, no onboard system ever sounds as good as a properly-mic'ed (externally) acoustic guitar, and internal mics just tend to increase feedback problems, so I can't see the point in making things more complicated than they need to be when the result is no better than a decent passive pickup and an outboard box which can be replaced as and when needed.

The internal mic does noticeably improve the sound over the undersaddle on it's own.  I've played a Rare Earth Blend as well that sounded a lot better than the magnetic pick up on it's own.

I've not had  problems with feedback.  If anything it's probably slightly less feedback prone than the K&K Pure Mini I've got in another guitar.  You've always got the option of reducing the amount of mic in the blend.

Aura and similar things are the future.  Martin are factory fitting them now instead of the blend system in mine, but through a decent PA or my Loudbox Mini I'm very happy with the sound I get.

I've been looking at getting one of the Aura pedals or something similar, but that's more to improve the sound of another guitar that's just got an undersaddle.

I would agree that in a lot of ways you are better off having a simple under saddle and having the preamp outboard, but it is a bit of a faff at times.  I've got an older guitar with a Headway in that has an outboard preamp that goes on your strap or belt.  That's a bit of a faff.  It's a lot simpler when it's all in the guitar. If you ever do end up with multiple acoustics though it makes sense going outboard so you can use the same preamp with all of them.

AngryGoldfish

It seems there are a lot of people with differing opinions.

The Fishman Aura Spectrum outboard preamp is a lot of money. Along with the K&K Mini or AG09, it's a lot to spend. I don't think I want to pay that much just to amplify for the few gigs I'll be doing. I don't mind spending £2k on a Soldano because I adore the sound and because it's a purchase of pleasure as well as business, but an acoustic preamp could leave me ultimately disappointed. It gets the job done, sure, and in that I will be pleased, but I may not be elated and chuffed to bits with how I sound. I'd rather pay €300 and be just as pleased—because ultimate it will do the same job (I think). Either way it appears there will be a compromise made.

mgaw

Its all about compromise with Acoustic PUPs i feel.....very difficult to get a great sound and it appears to be better to use a multisource system...i.e   undersaddle, mic, magnetic  etc....Highlander make some of the best undersaddle pickup and internal mic combos around,

in my experience the very best i have had was DPA clip on mic,   bit fussy to use but what a sound i used it in conjunction with K&K soundboard transducer..and blended in the mic to increase tolerance to feedback...stunning sound.

crunchman

I've not tried one in the flesh but from the clips I've seen the TC Bodyrez might be a more budget way of achieving 80% of what the Aura does.  It's £70 new so you could maybe get a basic undersaddle and a Bodyrez for less money than the blender would cost.  Depends whether you just want to be able to simply plug in or whether you want to carry a pedal around with you. (Actually, given the reliability of TC products I've used you would probably want to carry 2 pedals with you as you would need a spare).

John_P

I have the LR baggs lyric in my emerald acoustic - it's noticeably the best sounding system I've used.   I've only done half a dozen gigs (including a couple of big stage/PA's)  but at every gig someone has commented on how good it sounds.    Mine only has a simple onboard volume control which I thought might be a bit limiting but it's been fine. 

ICBM

AngryGoldfish said:

Well, I'm torn. The Fishman AG 094, it's a piezo pickup, correct? I've not heard any piezo pickups I've ever liked, on electrics or acoustics. Does the preamp alter/improve the sound of the unit?

With the Aura it's a totally different concept - with the blend set to full, all you're hearing is the modelling, the pickup is purely a sensor for it… kind of like a Variax, but with a real acoustic guitar to provide the source. The reason the blend is there is because the pure modelled sound can lack directness and punch for live playing, so you can blend a bit in - the idea isn't to really hear the pickup sound itself - although the full Spectrum model Aura has EQ and compression for the pickup signal too so you can have the best of both worlds.

Be warned if you do try one though, it's *extremely* non-intuitive to set up - the first time I tried one I didn't think it sounded good at all, because I hadn't read the manual or fully understood what it does. But once set up right, it sounds fantastic and much more like a properly mic'ed acoustic than any other system I've heard. It *is* expensive, but it has the great advantage that you can use it with multiple guitars so it then appears much cheaper if you divide by two, three etc. I have three guitars I use it with so it's only the equivalent of £100 each.

crunchman said:

I would agree that in a lot of ways you are better off having a simple under saddle and having the preamp outboard, but it is a bit of a faff at times.

I find it much less of a faff - no batteries to worry about in the guitar, just plug one cable in and the pedal sits on the floor in front of you, then goes direct to the PA. No more complicated than using a DI box really. The full Aura has a tuner built-in too, so that's one less box again.

I think the Baggs Venue is probably closer to that all-in-one concept than the Para DI, but I haven't tried one yet.

crunchman

@ICBM Batteries aren't a big issue - the current draw is very low.  I probably only change the battery in my Ellipse Blender about once every two years.  Even changing it that infrequently, I've never actually had it die on me in a live situation.  The only worry is if you forget to unplug it and leave it plugged in for a week.

If I was buying a new guitar now, and putting a pickup in, I think you are right that a simple undersaddle and an Aura is probably the best approach, but I'm perfectly happy with the sound I get from the Ellipse Blend.  It's a very good pickup.  If you can't get it to sound good then I think the problem is more with what you are plugging it into.  Some people might prefer the ease of only having to bring the guitar without any other equipment.

AngryGoldfish

crunchman said:

I've not tried one in the flesh but from the clips I've seen the TC Bodyrez might be a more budget way of achieving 80% of what the Aura does.  It's £70 new so you could maybe get a basic undersaddle and a Bodyrez for less money than the blender would cost.  Depends whether you just want to be able to simply plug in or whether you want to carry a pedal around with you. (Actually, given the reliability of TC products I've used you would probably want to carry 2 pedals with you as you would need a spare).

Yeah, TC pedals have always been problematic for me. Very poor quality switches. I don't mind carrying a pedal around as well. I'm used to carrying an entire pedalboard with me.

crunchman said:

@ICBM Batteries aren't a big issue - the current draw is very low.  I probably only change the battery in my Ellipse Blender about once every two years.  Even changing it that infrequently, I've never actually had it die on me in a live situation.  The only worry is if you forget to unplug it and leave it plugged in for a week.

If I was buying a new guitar now, and putting a pickup in, I think you are right that a simple undersaddle and an Aura is probably the best approach, but I'm perfectly happy with the sound I get from the Ellipse Blend.  It's a very good pickup.  If you can't get it to sound good then I think the problem is more with what you are plugging it into.  Some people might prefer the ease of only having to bring the guitar without any other equipment.

I might just go with the Ellipse as it seems so easy. I definitely prefer the sound of the Lyric to anything else I've heard in sound clips, though I haven't heard the Aura yet. I have to look that one up still.

terada

I know this might go completely against the flow, and I'm not the most experienced with regard to acoustic pickups, but I recently tried a J45 that had a stock LR Baggs Element pickup installed, that when played through an AER amp sounded really brilliant.

Might be another idea to add to the mix if chasing good amplified acoustic tone is such a minefield.

ICBM

terada said:

I know this might go completely against the flow, and I'm not the most experienced with regard to acoustic pickups, but I recently tried a J45 that had a stock LR Baggs Element pickup installed, that when played through an AER amp sounded really brilliant.

Might be another idea to add to the mix if chasing good amplified acoustic tone is such a minefield.

They're OK. I still have one in my second Gibson, which I haven't got around to removing and replacing with a plain undersaddle pickup yet. My Dove also came with one, but I've already replaced it.

They don't sound in the same league as the Lyric, the Anthem (which is a combination of the two, roughly) or the Fishman Aura.

strtdv

I've a Fishman Matrix Infinity in mine as I got it pretty cheap (I paid £500 for the guitar so didn't want to spend a fortune on a pickup) and it sounds good, but I'm well aware that if I still have the guitar in 10 years time it'll need replaced (although I could just connect the undersaddle pickup directly to a jack and use an external preamp like the Aura if I wanted to I suppose).

In any of the demoes I've heard the Lyric is easily the best sounding, and if I were going to get another Furch that's what I'd put in it

AngryGoldfish

I've seen a Furch G-20-CM from a cool shop in Budapest that looks like the World Guitars of acoustic guitars for Hungary. I rather frustratingly spent a small fortune phoning their mobile (thought it was a landline number) talking to a nice chap who gave me the details on a pickup they stock that is supposed to be the shit, the Carlos CP-1A VIP. It's a piezo pickup with some 'Carlos Juan magic'. I still prefer the sound of the Lyric, but they don't stock it. The Anthem they can install, but it's actually more expensive than the supposedly amazing Carlos pickup that Eric Clapton and Mark Knopfler use and swear by. They can also install a K&K Pure Mini or the Schertler Magnetico AG6 + S-MIC-M, which seems to be highly regarded as well. Any thoughts?

thomasross20

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

As far as I can see the preamp isn't anything that's full of alien digital technology, so it won't date in the same way that some of the digital Aura types are likely to.  I don't think there is a lot to wrong with them.

You wouldn't think so, but one of the reasons I'm so against onboard electrics is that I see a small but significant number of dead electro-acoustic preamps. OK, if it's a non-invasive system you could replace it with another similar non-invasive one if you can't repair it or get an exact replacement in years to come.

But to me, no onboard system ever sounds as good as a properly-mic'ed (externally) acoustic guitar, and internal mics just tend to increase feedback problems, so I can't see the point in making things more complicated than they need to be when the result is no better than a decent passive pickup and an outboard box which can be replaced as and when needed.

The better the acoustic, the more I think this.

I still haven't gotten around to any of this but the more I think about it, the more I think you're bang on the money! 

I just don't fancy a sound hole pickup though, totally "invasive"

crunchman

AngryGoldfish said:

I've seen a Furch G-20-CM from a cool shop in Budapest that looks like the World Guitars of acoustic guitars for Hungary. I rather frustratingly spent a small fortune phoning their mobile (thought it was a landline number) talking to a nice chap who gave me the details on a pickup they stock that is supposed to be the shit, the Carlos CP-1A VIP. It's a piezo pickup with some 'Carlos Juan magic'. I still prefer the sound of the Lyric, but they don't stock it. The Anthem they can install, but it's actually more expensive than the supposedly amazing Carlos pickup that Eric Clapton and Mark Knopfler use and swear by. They can also install a K&K Pure Mini or the Schertler Magnetico AG6 + S-MIC-M, which seems to be highly regarded as well. Any thoughts?

I've got a K&K Pure Mini in one guitar.  It's purely passive so you don't need to mess around with batteries etc.  It's got more output than an undersaddle so you can get away without needing a preamp.  I've used it live straight into a PA with an active DI box and it's been ok but it doesn't have the output of the pre-amped pickups in my other guitars.  Soundwise, it's definitely more acoustic sounding than all the undersaddles I've used, but not as good as the Ellipse Blender that's in my best Martin.  Because the sensors are on the soundboard it's a bit more feedback prone than an undersaddle, possible even a bit worse than the blender (depending on how high you set the mic).

I've no experience of the others you mentioned.