Nelson Mandela

tbm

hungrymark said:

Does anybody else think there is a sort of reduction in critical faculties where Nelson Mandela is concerned? He was a great figure and all that, but I think there might be a bit of white-man's guilt about his status. I don't know, the adulation has just always made me feel a bit uncomfortable - maybe that's my white-man's guilt coming through. If this is inappropriate here then fair enough, I just wonder if he was everything that we think or wanted him to be.

I duuno, to go through what he went through and come out with the level of humility and tolerance is pretty astounding. For once I don't think the plaudits go far enough. It's also worth remembering that he didn't undergo some sort of conversion in prison. He went to jail preaching that there was room for everybody in South Africa.

EricTheWeary

Col_Decker said:

Are you sure? I've not seen anything on the news.

they flashed it up on the screen during Sky Arts Portrait Artist of the Year.

Having heard Idris Elba as Nelson Mandela it sounded worryingly like Harry Enfield's portrayal although as I am quite poorly ill informed ( despite Free Nelson Mandela being the compulsory song of every student disco I went to) on the details of Mandela's life perhaps I should see it nonetheless. Or I could read something. But that's not going to happen.

RIP Nelson

hungrymark

tbm said:

hungrymark said:

Does anybody else think there is a sort of reduction in critical faculties where Nelson Mandela is concerned? He was a great figure and all that, but I think there might be a bit of white-man's guilt about his status. I don't know, the adulation has just always made me feel a bit uncomfortable - maybe that's my white-man's guilt coming through. If this is inappropriate here then fair enough, I just wonder if he was everything that we think or wanted him to be.

I duuno, to go through what he went through and come out with the level of humility and tolerance is pretty astounding. For once I don't think the plaudits go far enough. It's also worth remembering that he didn't undergo some sort of conversion in prison. He went to jail preaching that there was room for everybody in South Africa.

Yes, that's true. Mandela didn't seem to agree with black dominance either, as well as white dominance, which is quite magnaminous when you consider his prison term and that blacks dominate the population of SA. He was no Mugabe. Like I say though, uncritical adulation makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

hungrymark

EricTheWeary said:

Col_Decker said:

Are you sure? I've not seen anything on the news.

they flashed it up on the screen during Sky Arts Portrait Artist of the Year.

Having heard Idris Elba as Nelson Mandela it sounded worryingly like Harry Enfield's portrayal although as I am quite poorly ill informed ( despite Free Nelson Mandela being the compulsory song of every student disco I went to) on the details of Mandela's life perhaps I should see it nonetheless. Or I could read something. But that's not going to happen.

RIP Nelson

I have a the comic book version of Long Walk To Freedom as well as the unabridged edition. Sounds stupid but it's pretty good, and faithful to the book.

Fretwired

hungrymark said:

Does anybody else think there is a sort of reduction in critical faculties where Nelson Mandela is concerned? He was a great figure and all that, but I think there might be a bit of white-man's guilt about his status. I don't know, the adulation has just always made me feel a bit uncomfortable - maybe that's my white-man's guilt coming through. If this is inappropriate here then fair enough, I just wonder if he was everything that we think or wanted him to be.

Not sure. Faced with a brutal white led regime he tuened to violence [he ran the military wing of the ANC]. To the whites he was a terrorist and to the blacks a freedom fighter. He was arrested and incarcerated and yet when he was released he renounced violence and preached forgiveness and reconciliation. South Africa could easily have gone the way of Zimbabwe but it didn't. I wouldn't underestimate his achievement - his inspirational leadership helped with the Northern Ireland peace process. There's a mural of him along the Falls Road.

Handsome_Chris

Fretwired said:

Lixarto said:

The likes of Call Me Dave and his mates were at uni in the early 80s having "Let's Hang Nelson Mandela" parties.

They'll mnetion that now of course.

The bastards.

On a serious note you need to check your facts as this was debunked years ago - Cameron wasn't involved in politics at Oxford and wasn't a member of the Foundation of Conservative Students that produced the poster, sang the song and held the parties. He did work for a sanctions busting company though after he left uni. You might want to amend this as no doubt Cameron's henchmen could be on the war path.

On the other hand Boris was heavily involved and was a member of the group that produced the tasteless hang Mandela poster ..

And look on the bright side .. since Cameron took over leadership of the Tories the membership has dropped by 60% ... :-)

Ooooo. @Lixarto, here is a new low for the forum: Trying to make political capital out of a great man's death.  Too soon. 

@Fretwired, champagne socialism has never been about checking the facts, it's been about making them up.

frankus

Lixarto said:

The likes of Call Me Dave and his mates were at uni in the early 80s having "Let's Hang Nelson Mandela" parties.

They'll mnetion that now of course.

The bastards.

It's good to know we can trust you to remind us ... from time to time.

In maybe 100 years everyone will be as chilled as Mandela and we'll get there because of his example. Mandela was jailed because his reasonable behaviour intimidated the government - the very last thing he'd do is change that behaviour and because he didn't change his behaviour it resonated and amplified around the world - they gave him the opportunity to communicate with the world.

But more importantly when he was released and when he came to power he didn't change that behaviour - it would have been all too easy for post-apartheid Africa to have been righteous and vengeful but that didn't happen - the Reconcilliation Commission actually reconciled old emnities and wrongs.

I for one don't mourn his passing because he lived a life with a constant message and commitment - there is no missed opportunity to mourn - not like my life and I suspect so many of us.. there's no loss to mourn because his life was spent creating a message that we all carry and respect - integrity can endure and triumph.

randomhandclaps

Of all the events in Mandela's life what would you guess 'This Morning' would focus on?  That's right folks, the time when Groundforce did over his garden.

not_the_dj

randomhandclaps said:

Of all the events in Mandela's life what would you guess 'This Morning' would focus on?  That's right folks, the time when Groundforce did over his garden.

Have they mentioned when he got to meet the Spice Girls yet?

hungrymark

Reasonable behaviour, or reasonable ideals? I agree with Fret, I think, in that he seemed to turn to violence as a kind of last resort, but he was jailed originally for leaving the country illegally and then, subsequently, for plotting to violently overthrow the government and sabotage. Any judicial system would have to deal with that sort of thing.

But Mandela did a lot of good, particularly in his later life, with the Truth and Reconciliation approach that Fret correctly says is now been applied to Northern Ireland. I admire his ideals.

Kebabkid

A great, great man and even at 50, I'm too young to remember Kennedy or Ghandi, so I reckon he's the most iconic figure I'll ever know of in my lifetime.

Turning the other cheek and forgiveness, especially against people that have caused atrocities to you and mankind, have got to be some of the hardest things to do. He showed us that it can be done, with sincerity, humility and grace. What goes around, comes around, and his presidency was fitting and deserved, but the legacy will live on forever!

RIP Nelson.

mellowsun

When you look at the achievements of Mandela, and his stature not just as a politician but as a human being, and then look at the sorry-ass, self-serving clowns that we have running our country who call themselves 'leaders', you wonder how they have the front to feel themselves worthy to even comment on his passing.

I wonder how much embarrassment they feel.

holnrew

Kebabkid said:

A great, great man and even at 50, I'm too young to remember Kennedy or Ghandi, so I reckon he's the most iconic figure I'll ever know of in my lifetime.

Turning the other cheek and forgiveness, especially against people that have caused atrocities to you and mankind, have got to be some of the hardest things to do. He showed us that it can be done, with sincerity, humility and grace. What goes around, comes around, and his presidency was fitting and deserved, but the legacy will live on forever!

RIP Nelson.

I think Mandela is a better man than both Kennedy (not a big admirer of him anyway) and Gandhi.

frankus

Mandela would kick Ghandi's butt -- which means Ghandi is teh best.

I know this cos I've got Waddington's Pacifist Top Trumps:



I think Galloway got in by being harmless whereas Livingstone got in by being "most-like Hitler without achieving world domination" - Ken reads this site so I thought that'd be funny to write

EricTheWeary

hungrymark said:

EricTheWeary said:

Col_Decker said:

Are you sure? I've not seen anything on the news.

they flashed it up on the screen during Sky Arts Portrait Artist of the Year.

Having heard Idris Elba as Nelson Mandela it sounded worryingly like Harry Enfield's portrayal although as I am quite poorly ill informed ( despite Free Nelson Mandela being the compulsory song of every student disco I went to) on the details of Mandela's life perhaps I should see it nonetheless. Or I could read something. But that's not going to happen.

RIP Nelson

I have a the comic book version of Long Walk To Freedom as well as the unabridged edition. Sounds stupid but it's pretty good, and faithful to the book.

The film got a thumpingly bad review on BBC4 at the weekend so I am even more tempted by the comic book version now.

Phil_aka_Pip

the african dyslexics leaving flowers at the nearest Nissan Main Dealer ...

holnrew

I had free tickets to Long Walk to Freedom tonight, Didn't bother.

octatonic

At least he never reoffended.