What is my problem? (A little challenge for all you building and modding experts)

salih

A year ago I decided I wanted to understand my guitar a little better so collected some parts and built this good looking girl. She taught me a lot during the way but when she was finished I realized there is something wrong with it which I cant just put my finger on to work on it.
So as you can imagine first thing I did was talking to a guitar shop in my local area just to be told that "guitar making is mathematics mate, if you dont know the mathematics there is nothing anyone can do" even though i offered to buy a new neck or change any parts of it.
As you can imagine it really upset me to hear that this piece of equipment is as good as a sandwich package, just something to chuck in the bin.

I dont believe that, I m sure with enough knowledge and skills it can be fixed. I am open for any luthier or technician advice around london area or just even telling me what my problem is.

My tuner shows that my opens strings sound right but they dont as you can hear on the below soundclip, I ve checked my intonation with harmonics and and 12th fret still sounds fine. With the 5th fret some notes seem to be off tune but very slightly. Then again everything sounds still terrible so can someone tell me Why is it?

is it because of my nut? neck? bridge? what the hell is it ?

I am open for any advice on this and if you manage to point out my problem I will personally send you a letter telling how much I appreciate your help (only if you are ok with it obviously)


this is how she sounds like

and how she looks like.

Hope someone understands me. thanks a bunch in advance>>

frankus

Scientifically speaking, maybe she hates being anthropomorphised

What is the string height at the 12th fret?

How old are the strings?

salih

I knew some science genius would come up!! I thought she d like being called a her since she wears a red dress all the time o.O (between us it might be that she is jealous of my other girls)

Roughly 4mm at 12th and 3.5mm around the nut. they are pretty old actually(6-8 months) but hasnt been played that much during that time to be fair.

salih

This is as low as the action gets without buzzing by the way, do you think I need a little higher with shiving? could that be the problem?

paulnb57

There can't be huge amount wrong, some questions……..

Is it always in tune with open (unfretted) strings, or does it vary?

Do you always tune up to pitch (if you go too sharp on a note do you slacken flatter and tune back up to pitch or just release tension until in tune)

Does it go out of tune when you fret notes or chords?

Is the bridge in the right place? Near double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret?

It's built from parts, right? So it will be incompatible parts or incorrect adjustment or something loose…..

Is the neck tight?

It the bridge tight, can it wobble about?

Is there a floating term?

Are there enough turns of string on the tuner posts.

It is always the same string that goes out of tune or all of them?

Photos are not showing so I have no idea what style of guitar it is….

Nomad

salih said:

IRoughly 4mm at 12th and 3.5mm around the nut.

Is that from the tops of the frets, or from the fingerboard?

SteveRobinson

Either way, it's far too much. The pressure required to fret notes will put everything out of tune

salih

Uh oh I think we are getting somewhere already.

@paulnb57
It is a standard strat really. http://imgur.com/a/c2PUu ;

Is it always in tune with open (unfretted) strings, or does it vary?

It looks in tune on the tuner but it doesnt sound right especially the G string.

Do you always tune up to pitch (if you go too sharp on a note do you slacken flatter and tune back up to pitch or just release tension until in tune)

I wouldnt tune it too sharp then slacken unless i went too far.

Does it go out of tune when you fret notes or chords?

it doesnt go out of tune (I dont think it sounds in tune but at least they sound always at the same levl of horror for at least 15-20 mins of intense playing)

Is the bridge in the right place? Near double the distance from the nut to the 12th fret?

the 12th fret is literally the mid point of the distance so 30cm|30cm approximately

salih

It's built from parts, right? So it will be incompatible parts or incorrect adjustment or something loose…..

yes it is built from parts, I am pretty sure it would be one of those but which one :P

Is the neck tight?

it has got 4 big screws on it if you really push it it would kind of move but it is the with my other guitars which are factory made.

It the bridge tight, can it wobble about?

pretty tight doesnt move it has got a tremolo but 3 springs holding it so quite thight

Is there a floating term?

no

Are there enough turns of string on the tuner posts.

apart from the D string which has 1 and a half they all got 2 loops around them

It is always the same string that goes out of tune or all of them?

they dont necesarily go out of tune they just dont sound right when they are in tune.

@nomad
The measurements are made from the fingerboard itself not the frets.

@steve robinson
Do you think i need a new neck or a spesific type or extra shiving would be able to do the job for this?

steamabacus

First of all, have the nut slots been cut for proper string height? (This is a job for an experienced tech, really, if you're in any way unsure about what is involved). Secondly, is the neck relief correctly adjusted? Thirdly, are the saddles intonated correctly?

Even if all the above are correct, strat pickups adjusted too close to the strings can magnetically pull the string and pull the intonation out.

This is a good video (check his channel for other excellent strat set up videos).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6dlN93MGgw

If in doubt, take it to a decent guitar repairer to evaluate. Feline Guitars in Croydon or Jon Dickinson in Crystal Palace would be my recommendations if you're in South London.

frankus

Whereabouts are you? If you're around Essex we might be able to meet up.

If not try Dan Erlewines book

paulnb57

I think this is unfixable without somebody seeing it, I would suggest taking for a pro setup, or begging a setup from a willing nearby forum member.....there are too many variables to try to understand via a forum

ICBM

I can't see clearly enough in the pics, but assuming this is a factory-made neck the fret positions won't be out, so the 'mathematics' is taken care of. If you can intonate it correctly at the 12th fret the bridge is in the right place.

It sounds like the nut to me - even in the fuzzy pics it looks miles too high as Steve said. Fret each string at the third fret - so it's also resting on the second fret - and have a look at the gap between the first fret and the string. It should be tiny - between 1/10th and 1/4 of the string diameter at most.

If it's higher than this, when you fret notes between the nut and the 12th fret, and especially nearer the nut, they will play sharp if you've set the intonation correctly at the 12th because you're effectively bending the strings to get them down to the frets.

salih

Aha! This is where my research and readings has gotten me as well, the nut. It appears that my 1st being the worst 2nd and 3rd frets are out of tune especially if it is an open chord and i intentionally or unintentionally give it a but more gas to press the strings. So i would just need to get my nut cut right or in worst scenario change to a new nut right? Would it fix my horible sounding open strings as well? With the saddles when i ve done the same things on my other guitars it worked so i m supposing i was correct :d same with neck relief frets seem straight even when i put a ruler on them there is no gap or tilt. Pickups used to be a problem which was solved by drilling more space behind them and burying them down there. Nut on the other hand i dont think my sandpapering skills were enough i might take it to this shop in croydon, does anybody know how much it costs to get a nut job done? And may be just may be grounding as well because it gives out a hiss when i m not touching my strings

steamabacus

salih said:

Aha! This is where my research and readings has gotten me as well, the nut. It appears that my 1st being the worst 2nd and 3rd frets are out of tune especially if it is an open chord and i intentionally or unintentionally give it a but more gas to press the strings. So i would just need to get my nut cut right or in worst scenario change to a new nut right? Would it fix my horible sounding open strings as well? With the saddles when i ve done the same things on my other guitars it worked so i m supposing i was correct :d same with neck relief frets seem straight even when i put a ruler on them there is no gap or tilt. Pickups used to be a problem which was solved by drilling more space behind them and burying them down there. Nut on the other hand i dont think my sandpapering skills were enough i might take it to this shop in croydon, does anybody know how much it costs to get a nut job done? And may be just may be grounding as well because it gives out a hiss when i m not touching my strings

Jonathan from @FelineGuitars is here on the forum. Send him a pm for an estimate.

sweepy

Possibly the pickups are too close to the strings ?

ICBM

salih said:

And may be just may be grounding as well because it gives out a hiss when i m not touching my strings

That's normal and correct. All guitars with passive pickups do to some extent.

I would try to cut the nut yourself first - the worst result is that you still need a professional to replace it afterwards . You can buy professional nut files, but they're very expensive for just one job - or you can make your own that will work from a selection of broken and modified junior hacksaw blades and needle files. If you snap a hacksaw blade in half, hammer out the 'set' of the teeth against a hard surface, then draw it backwards through folded sandpaper to round off the edges you can make a passable nut file, and you can even get different thicknesses depending on how much hammering you do.

The main things you need to make sure are:

The bottom of the groove is smooth and rounded in profile so the string sits in the middle and doesn't snag - it doesn't need to be accurately the width of the string, slightly wider is better.

The groove slopes downwards from the fingerboard to the machineheads so the string vibration starts at the very front edge.

Go very slowly once you get close to the right depth, constantly checking using the string fretted at the third fret as the guide. If you go even slightly too far you're in trouble!

Don't worry too much about the height of the nut above the string, this can be cut down and smoothed afterwards if you want to, although it makes no real difference other than to stop you snagging your hand on it.

FelineGuitars

salih said:

Strings

Roughly 4mm at 12th and 3.5mm around the nut. they are pretty old actually(6-8 months) but hasnt been played that much during that time to be fair.

I think a lot of things won't sound or work at all right with those kind of string heights (assuming you are reading from the top of the frets or even the board itself) . A high nut will certainly make those first fret positions sound sharp.

Old strings too won't help - they can throw your intonation out of whack too

Putting together parts from different sources can be a tricky thing - especially if those manufacturers aren't all precisely following the same plans. 

I think that Bitsa guitars can work out really well if they have been put together so well and set up so that EVERYTHING WORKS fine.

However I understand people being nervous about buying a bitsa in case the one they buy hasn't been so carefully done and all the oddities ironed out.

We do deal a lot with the Earvana compensated tuning system nuts to help with out of tune-ness but I suspect that the problems you are facing may actually just benefit from some more regular set-up work, but to give a full and fair appraisal we'd need to have a look at the guitar.