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That being said, there are some on TGP I don't feel sorry for- I remember about a year after that Freekish thing went down, it came up on TGP in a pedal argument and someone there swore blind the Freekish one had mojo while the Joyo didn't. He was being completely serious.
You couldn't make it up.
Not to take the thread off at a tangent (in my defence, juansolo made me think of it when he mentioned Bill Finnegan trying to get a slice of the hyped used market), but what also I find somewhat bemusing is how a lot of people who are totally anti-clone (because clones mean the originator doesn't get any money) have no problem whatsoever with buying "the real thing" second-hand.
How does that work? Last I checked if you buy something s/h, the original manufacturer gets no money at all.
Maybe they'd claim that the knowledge they could sell it on to someone else gave the original purchaser the shove they needed to buy the thing new (hence giving the original designer/manufacturer money), or maybe they'd claim that if people see the thing on their boards it gives the originator free advertising... but both of those are a stretch, if you ask me. Especially when they're so black and white about the cloning thing, to then have such a nuanced justification of their own purchasing philosophy is kinda hypocritical, if you ask me.
Just to clarify, I have no problem with people buying things second hand. I have no real problem with clones either, in most instances (as I pointed out already in an earlier post).
I disagree entirely with that viewpoint. By that logic, the more important the invention/discovery you make, the less you deserve to benefit from it? That's messed up.
It seems to be a viewpoint which is quite prevalent currently- that the boffins can invent the important stuff for little or no reward (or taken further, teachers, nurses, doctors etc. should do it because it's a "calling"), while those doing the less important stuff can get on with making shitloads of money.
"What you're doing is too important to make money out of, you should be doing it out of the goodness of your heart. But what I'm doing, I should be free to make as much money as possible!"
Kinda convenient.
Don't get me wrong- I agree that if someone discovers a cure for cancer (or similar) that they better darn well share it pretty darn quickly. But by that same logic, to be logically consistent, that means any invention should be shared.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
That being said, I'm not as anti-downloading as most people seem to be (or maybe that's just the media I'm reading and normal people don't care), though I don't illegally download either.
And you make a good point about the second-hand market supply being limited by the amount of things which have been bought new- if you don't have patience, you may end up having to go new. Though I'd say that, from a philosophical point of view, there's very little difference there logically, just it's the technology difference. The average person can copy a CD in a few minutes on their computer, whereas the same can't be said for most other consumer products (like a table, or a shirt, or a guitar, or whatever).
But really it's a whole big grey area, as you said/implied. That's why I don't like them bringing in sweeping laws (eg. about downloading) when, taken to their logical conclusion, they could make a bunch of other things illegal (or at least, being logically consistent, they should be) which we've taken for granted up till now should be legal.
Mainly I agree with the "This is my opinion on the matter, but I realise it's my opinion and you can have arguments against it that are perfectly valid" approach that several people in the thread have been saying.
(b) I'd agree, however, with the caveat "as long as the original company isn't taking the piss with the price they charge". Granted, that's a whole other grey area.
I'd also probably put in the caveat that as long as the cloner isn't really aiming at the original's target market, then it's ok, too. As I said, I'm not gonna tell some kid who can just about afford a joyo that what they really should ethically do is do without an overdrive pedal altogether.
You could probably also make a case that making something which already exists cheaper is, in itself, some form of original thought. For example, if a company comes up with a way to make an existing product way cheaper, that's arguably innovation, too.
Granted, if they rip off a PC design and make savings only because they had no R&D costs and they're paying slave labour rates in the third world, that probably doesn't involve quite so much innovation...
Sorry Dave, I was not suggesting boffins shouldn't make money off important breakthroughs. Completely the opposite.
I was actually making the point that FSB took the attitude that we should know what's going on in the and published the build for people with not an ounce of electronic understanding to replicate - whether rightly or wrongly. The attitude that that Bill should either share his ideas for free or else he's a bad bloke in which case we should be able to take them anyway.
My only reference to the 'cure for cancer' argument is that if Bill had discovered a cure for cancer and was charging £4,000,000 a shot you could understand the 'Robin Hood' justification of pulling his ideas apart. He was however selling an electronic item for £300 - there are plenty of others making money out of their ideas and at the end of the day it's a guitar pedal. Sharing the idea will not change the world but will change Bill's and I could understand why he would be pissed. I'm not saying I agree with him, and in many ways as Juan said I think he's his own worst enemy.
It was already out of production, and there were certain builders - either in small runs or large scale making them. Obviously it's not voodoo and anybody with a decent understanding of electronics who got beneath the goop would see what was going on. I think the availability of schematics and layouts is fantastic for those who wish to learn and educate themselves, in the same way as tablature. As a pedal or amp repairer it would be impossible to cope without them.
Personally I think FSB and Diystompboxes are both fantastic resources and communities that I both read and contribute to and would fight to keep them open. It's great when people are out to learn, experiment and develop their own ideas.
If you take Brian Wampler as an example, it's common knowledge he started off modding and building clones as anyone would need capital to fund either their interest/hobby or start up a business and get their name known. The publishing of schematics can have a positive effect for some builders, like Paul C, especially when you read short-sighted TGP mob etc sniping 'I opened up my Timmy and it's just a modified Tube Screamer'. I also think it's helps real original thinkers and designers by exposing the re-inventing and overcharging of the wheel in the case of designs like the SHO or COT. With these two particularly I think the builders get what they deserve as they are taking publically available circuits and claiming to have invented them.
Juansolo, on your Klone listing on EBay you even state where you can get the PCB. It's very clear that I am purchasing your time, care and enclosure design from a relatively small output. There is no point at which you are claiming it is anything other than what it is or making wholesale amounts of someone else's designs. On top of this you website actively shares information and is another good resource.
Besides it though you have wholesale reproductions of Klons, making the very claims that you should be wary of amateur and hobbyists despite the fact that it is a copied circuit that would require no knowledge of circuit designs to construct.
It's those who have sat in the middle, slagging off hobbyist or small scale builders whilst ripping off designers that I have a real issue with. It's like poisoning the well after you have drunk from it. The original Timmys and Mad Professor pedal (just to name two) were built on perfboard or vero and hand finished. In that way that could have been dismissed as amateurish but clearly aren't. I don't really see a difference between this and large scale corporations trying to crush smaller outlets who are actually trying to develop new concepts and designs with unfounded and ill-educated marketing or scare-mongering.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
(And I'm well aware that many of my "must have" things wouldn't either.)
God no. it's the kind of pedal that you just don't want to turn off. It's very hard to explain, but it just makes everything slightly more responsive, slightly more fruity (presumably more emphasis on harmonics). TBH it's nothing special once you turn the gain up to the point you can hear it clip, but at the spot just below that level it's pretty magic.
I still agree with what juansolo is saying (if someone does something to facilitate understanding (or anything beneficial) and then someone else abuses that, that's not the original person's fault and doesn't mean we should stop the beneficial stuff). But sorry for ascribing something to you that you didn't mean.
Agreed (I agree with the rest of your post too,just didn't want to make this any longer. And I especially agree with that bit.)
Agreed.
2 wrongs don't make a right, but at the same time the person who did the original wrong hardly has the moral high ground to accuse the person doing the second wrong of not playing fair, either.
No worries Dave. Can see how it read like that.
What's bizarre about the basic design of the Klon is that (as ICBM pointed out) it features hard clipping to ground. Fair enough. Then however, much has been done to negate the characteristics of the hard clipping. The selection of the germanium diodes, I would bet was far more a step to soften clipping than a eureka moment. Next you have the feedback loop after the diodes which just serves to further lower the gain and filter out the harsher high frequency fizz associated this kind of setup.
It could be shear genius but has always struck me far more as someone who started with a Rat or Dist+ style setup and set about removing the harsh distortion character and lowering the gain into more friendly overdrive territory. That's why I always find it funny that it is marketed as an overdrive, yet when you ask people what the like about it they point to using it as a booster on a low gain setting. At low gain setting it's functions as a pretty standard op-amp booster - ala MXR Microamp, albeit with some highs filtered out - given the perception or a warmer/fatter boost (and the Microamp is already know as a fattening boost). The low forward voltage of the germaniums to ground undoubtedly add the touch of dynamics stickyfiddle is referring to at low gain settings. Get above the clean boost with mild dynamics and start pushing those that opamp and diodes though and I don't see many people genuinely raving about it as a stand alone overdrive/distortion.
It also wouldn't be the first massively-hyped "game changer" pedal which has got what look suspiciously like ad-hoc approaches to tweaking the pedal's tone rather than the eureka moment you mentioned. But at least, to be fair, the centaur is an original circuit.
From what I can remember from trying one, it was really good... but as you said (and as I thought at the time), when used as it's often used as a clean boost, it didn't seem to do all that much that a (much cheaper) clean boost wouldn't do. It probably does sound slightly different (that's what i've heard from people i trust who aren't in the mojo brigade; I genuinely can't remember as it was so long ago that I tried it), but it's a lot of money.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
I also reckon pro co should release a rat with different modes. they do it on the deucetone rat but it's silly expensive, not to mention really big and I don't need two rats- just the two modes on the one pedal and I'm not buying two darn pedals (or one pedal which is the size and cost of two!) for that when the differences are so small.
To me, the mooer isn't so much a clone as a better (for me) rat than pro co makes. Admittedly, the fact it was £28 didn't hurt either. But if Pro Co offered a single-pedal rat at maybe £10 more than the bog standard rat with switchable clipping, I may well get one (probably would if I gigged).
Somehow I missed a bunch of posts in here yesterday. dunno what happened there...
Cheers and agreed
(a) exactly (and I should probably clarify, when I say I have no problem with clones, I generally mean the cheap ones). Heck if I gigged I'd be using something better than a joyo. But for duffing about at home like I do, it's "good enough". You don't expect someone doing the school run to have to fork out for an F1-quality car and it's a bit the same here. If the original manufacturer doesn't offer a "good enough" option for the amateur player, then it's fair enough that someone else does. At least with an old, well-understood circuit like the tubescreamer which would be long out of patent if it even were patentable. Maybe it's different if it's a brand new pedal which required tons of R&D, then I don't expect them to give it away for nothing.
That being said, I really like the bad monkey I picked up recently. It qualifies under the "tweaked clone" thing you said, though, because it has the bass control (even if I dial it in like a tubescreamer 99% of the time, it's nice to have the option). I'd probably get the hardwire od (which is supposedly a "better" bad monkey, though I haven't tried it) if I gigged.
(b) agreed. I have no problem with slight tweaks either if they make a big difference- sometimes the difference between a good pedal and a great pedal is not all that much. But again, it's the honesty thing. If you've made a good pedal great by tweaking two components, admit it.