Gordon Smith and Richard's Guitars

DeeTee

digitalscream said:

DeeTee said:

I'd really like to buy a ready built set neck guitar with no hardware, finished or unfinished. I can then purchase and build the rest myself.

Jaden used to make a Series 2 kit for £550. Didn't sell a single one, despite people asking him for it...

Cost. For that money you can buy a new LPJ.

DeeTee

Or an Epi Tribute LP with a hundred left over to get roaring drunk.

streethawk

JookyChap said:

Yeah, but what's going to happen to all that benefit money if everybody gets a job?

The government will keep it - end of story.

It's a conspiracy I tell thee...

It's a conspiracy, but not quite how you might imagine.

The neo conservative theory (NAIRU) of optimal 'full employment' is anywhere up to 10% unemployment at any given time. An EU study has posited that the long term unemployed have little or no effect on the model, so if you were going for, say, a 'healthy' 6% unemployment then you would need that percentage to be made up of people temporarily out of work. So I suppose you could tack the forgotten long term unemployed onto the percentage. 

Sounds crackpot but it has seemingly been adhered to at UK govt level: "Rising unemployment and the recession have been the price that we have had to pay to get inflation down. That price is well worth paying".

 N. Lamont. 1991. 

Tony Blair didn't really want to see a return to full employment, and if he did, he wasn't talking about a 0% rate. 

Similarly, the Tories don't want to see everybody off the dole 'to save the British tax payer money.'. It's a political expedient for Daily Mail readers.

Rox

Frankly, I'd think ANY 'terms' of business are no good if the products you're being sent cannot be returned and are impossible to sell due to quality control issues.  I'd rather shop where that attention to detail is present. 

TTony

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Far too many people sit on their arses and bleat

On a different scale, but the existence of this forum shows what can be done, even whilst still sat on an arse (or chair).

We (as a forum discussion) have looked at this topic a few times over the years.

I would love for there to be an internationally recognised, UK based, viable guitar manufacturer.  A few people have tried to establish such a business, at different price points, through the years.  They've largely failed, not because of poor quality of product (GS being a possible exception), but because of the difficulties of competing against the established brands for the business of the average guitar buyer.

The difficulties are many - and affect most small businesses that try to grow.  

The conclusion usually is that it would take a wealthy and long-sighted investor/benefactor with a lot of spare time and general business management experience to work alongside a talented guitar designer/builder.  We have a few of the latter.

It would be a 10+ year project.

octatonic

TTony said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Far too many people sit on their arses and bleat

On a different scale, but the existence of this forum shows what can be done, even whilst still sat on an arse (or chair).

We (as a forum discussion) have looked at this topic a few times over the years.

I would love for there to be an internationally recognised, UK based, viable guitar manufacturer.  A few people have tried to establish such a business, at different price points, through the years.  They've largely failed, not because of poor quality of product (GS being a possible exception), but because of the difficulties of competing against the established brands for the business of the average guitar buyer.

The difficulties are many - and affect most small businesses that try to grow.  

The conclusion usually is that it would take a wealthy and long-sighted investor/benefactor with a lot of spare time and general business management experience to work alongside a talented guitar designer/builder.  We have a few of the latter.

It would be a 10+ year project.

It is very difficult to launch a new guitar brand.

Most builders can only hope for a small slice of the market.

Jaden Rose seems to be kicking ass though, although it is still primarily a one man operation. (Not a criticism)

Manson guitars too- although they make most of their affordable guitars in Eastern Europe.

People know I'm training to be a luthier- I know will be able to make a good product- will I be able to successfully launch a brand?

Who knows.

It will be tough.

I honestly don't know if the UK can support a builder making a UK product for around a grand.

How many people where have actually bought a UK made guitar, for instance?

If not... why not?

I see most people going for Mex/Jap/Korean instruments these days.

Or USA Fenders/Gibsons.

TTony

octatonic said:

I honestly don't know if the UK can support a builder making a UK product for around a grand.

How many people where have actually bought a UK made guitar, for instance?

I don't think you should restrict your (long-term) target market to the UK, although it makes sense to focus on your home market in the earlier years.

If you're really thinking of trying to make a living out of it, talk (and not just once!) to some of the UK builders that have been trying to do that over the years.  And get a critical and knowledgable friend (who you also trust!) in your corner.  Sorry if that's a lesson in sucking eggs.

I have wondered whether some sort of UK collective organisation could work - on the basis that each builder's main competition is the established brands rather than another small UK builder.

FWIW, my UK builder selection includes a couple of JJs, rather more NSGs than I should admit to (I thought Nathan could have cracked it!), a Wez custom and a Bailey special (not a BYOG product!).

grungebob

I have a UK westone prestige that although a great player and superbly built instrument just never got the recognition it deserved. It's easily up there quality wise as my prs ce or eg guitars. I know they chose the wrong brand name but there must be a reason it didn't make it, perhaps the UK guitar market like the tv listings is very USA centric?

octatonic

TTony said:

octatonic said:

I honestly don't know if the UK can support a builder making a UK product for around a grand.

How many people where have actually bought a UK made guitar, for instance?

I don't think you should restrict your (long-term) target market to the UK, although it makes sense to focus on your home market in the earlier years.

If you're really thinking of trying to make a living out of it, talk (and not just once!) to some of the UK builders that have been trying to do that over the years.  And get a critical and knowledgable friend (who you also trust!) in your corner.  Sorry if that's a lesson in sucking eggs.

I have wondered whether some sort of UK collective organisation could work - on the basis that each builder's main competition is the established brands rather than another small UK builder.

FWIW, my UK builder selection includes a couple of JJs, rather more NSGs than I should admit to (I thought Nathan could have cracked it!), a Wez custom and a Bailey special (not a BYOG product!).

Hi Tony, 

I have been and do speak UK builders- I went and visited Jaden Rose, Patrick Eggle and Nick Benjamin in the last year.

It is a small scene but I'm mostly working on getting the building side of things sorted.

Actually though we are moving back to Australia in 2015/2016 so it will be a slightly different market- although I'll be doing some stuff here.

My particular area of interest is in the sphere of ergonomics & ergonomic builds so it is always going to be niche.

I have talked about sorting out a building collective with some people I know.

It is tricky though because a few bad reports from one builder can tear down the entire brand.

I'm fairly lucky in that I have a property business that I run on the side to everything else which doesn't require much time.

A lot of builders need it to make money in the short term (or have day jobs) where I'll be able to do a few builds a bit cheaper to establish the brand and put everything into them- not 'at cost' but not much more than that.

Form an orderly queue, gents.

blueskunk

Had a gs2 from soundsgreat a few years ago now, was a sweet guitar that i regretted selling.

Dave_Mc

octatonic said:

I honestly don't know if the UK can support a builder making a UK product for around a grand.

How many people where have actually bought a UK made guitar, for instance?

If not... why not?

I see most people going for Mex/Jap/Korean instruments these days.

Or USA Fenders/Gibsons.

I have several UK-made guitars- not all of my guitars are UK-made, but off the top of my head I'd say ~25% of mine are (and a similar percentage of my amps). Not the best percentage ever, but if every guitar player here had a similar percentage, I'm guessing the UK guitar- and amp-making industry would be in ruder health than it is.

Don't get me wrong- people can buy whatever they want. And I have nothing against the big brands, really- just it makes me sad when people say they want a Fender or a Gibson and almost refuse to try the competition. I don't see what harm trying all your options does- if you still want a Fender or Gibson once you've tried their competitors, what harm's been done? At least make the big guys do something to justify their position at the top.

timmysoft

I've not read the whole thread, just the initial post and the link it refers to.

I've owned 5 Gordon Smith guitars, they've all been decent (aside from the horrible stock pickups). I've always looked at them as a stripped down, basic guitar, i'm not into fancy flames and quilts, so i only ever owned GS1s, GS1.5's and GS2's. All i can say is the basic models have always been very good, solid workhorses. 

I've seen the pictures and yes, that guitar looks like it has a truly horrible finish, but a dealer and a supplier should have a far better relationship and be able to work through the issues to get things sorted. Richard doesnt have an exactly golden record himself, so i bet there is a lot more to the story than has been said.

usedtobe

I've got a GS Graduate. Never had a grand to spend on a guitar, though..

BenSirAmos

timmysoft said:

 i bet there is a lot more to the story than has been said.

Me too

DamianP

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Interesting isn't it ... I was told from one quarter, when I started OCP, that I could never hope to succeed in an overcrowded market ... that If I did get off the ground I'd be lucky to sell a hundred units in my first year ... that it was, at best, a 'break even' hobby. In my first year I more than tripled those sales predictions, and am expanding at a rate that has shocked even me. I am now earning a full time living ... and have just taken on Oil cities first (admittedly part time) member of staff. 

We have a massive pool of young people in this country ... who I have actually found ... in general... to be enthusiastic and ready to work ... yet get fobbed off from the pathetic excuse for an organisation that is Jobcentre Plus and get made to feel outcasts from the working world. A job, training, and a 'chance' is all most of them want.

I am probably about as pissed off as anyone can be by the sea of excuses that come in whenever someone suggests we try and take on the foreign competitors head on and actually create some proper growth in this country. There are cheap parts of the UK to move production to ... there are schemes to help train and employ a workforce ... and there is a good European market to trade with  .... I sell almost as many pickups to the rest of the EU as I do to the UK .... so why wouldn't that work with guitars?
Far too many people sit on their arses and bleat about not being competitive in this country without actually trying to do anything about it.

Rant over

I`m a full time guitar maker that earns the entirety of his living from it.   No other business to support it, working from business premises not from home.    I`m not sure if that qualifies as not sitting on my arse , I rather hope it does.

There are so many things to comment on in this thread, I don`t have time to address them all.

Congratulations on the success of your pickup making.   It is however, a very different proposition to guitar making.    Indeed the very success of a number of pickup makers here in the UK is itself an indicator of why it`s much tougher to do the same making guitars.   Compare too the levels of interest in the diy forum here compared to the made in the UK forum.     

I sell guitars all over the world.  little more than 5%are sold here at home.

Look at the brands stocked by UK dealers. Almost exclusively imports at all price and quality levels.  UK dealers simply aren`t interested in British made instruments.  I don`t know why but I have the unreplied to emails to prove it.   The self same dealers who sell guitars made by friends of mine who have the "advantage" of working thousands of miles away.  

Regarding a British made, mahogany, nitro guitar for £600.  It`s just not possible.  

Let`s do some sums.  fill in the gaps as required.

Retail price =  £600.

Less vat = £500

Less 30% dealer margin  = £350

Less shipping (lets be optimistic here) @ £20   = £330

Now lets add up the costs of the materials to make the guitar.

Body wood

Neck wood

Fingerboard

Truss rod

Frets 

position markers

side dots

Nut 

Tuners

Pickups (lets say 2 P90s)

Bridge

Strings

Strap buttons

Control cavity cover

Screws

Pots x2

Knobs x2

switch

jack socket

jack plate

wire

capacitor

scratchplate (lets be fancy!)

lacquer

case

packing materials

Cardboard box

Misc consumables (adhesives, abrasives, thinners etc)

How cheaply do we think we can buy all that and do we even want it to be the cheapest thing we can make.   How would we market that?

I`ve allowed an unrealistically small amount for each of those parts and come to £328 (This is about a third my real costs for high quality parts and materials.)

So we`ve got to make a guitar for £2.  

Did someone suggest £700 with better quality parts?   

Building down to a price simply doesn`t make sense.  Building up to a level of quality is eminently achievable and there are people who appreciate that.   Not many British people maybe but it`s a big world!

I have no desire whatsoever to be the British Gibson.  With the right support I think a British Collings is possible.

   

streethawk

I find British guitars to be derivative and/or a bit dated.

To a lot of people, figured tops and superstrats just aren't cool. But we do seem to build a lot of them.

New brands I like the look of tend to be from overseas, like Fano.

Not mad keen on the branding either:

Gordon Smith. If I had the misfortune to be named Gordon I would hide that from the general public. Or at least wrap it in a better font.

Patrick Eggle = eggy. Just, no. 

Burns is a good name but look at the state of them! The stringed equivalent of the austin allegro. 

And then there's Chappers. If Chappers (I'm sure he's a lovely fella etc) is the face of British guitar in the digital age, we might as well get on our raliegh choppers, ride home, stick on some Darkness and leave the cool American kids to it.

frankus

RichardsGuitars;101590" said:

When I post on a forum whether it be just now, on my own forum or even when I am replying to a customer in any situation I NEVER think "is this politically correct", is this "the right thing to say" or "will this help me sell more" or "will I lose sales from this reply"

I saw this the other day - they use the term "emotional correctness" - no point in being anyone's enemy:



... sounds like that's what you've been doing.

I think using emotional energy can be a good thing when the emotions have been understood, otherwise I find it a bit of a bigger rollercoaster than it needs to be.

Antique_Guitars

DamianP (Who I pressume is Damian Probett) is right it just can't be done at that low a cost, I have tried to work it out myself in the past.

I think paying myself £6 an hour I could make a a really simple electric for £750 including all materials and hardware but, all the material would be low quality as would the hardware so who would buy them. The only way to get the price down and quality up is as others have said to invest in a larger sale of operation, buy in bulk and use as many machines as possible.

impmann

/\ The other idea I had was to have the machining and perhaps the finishing done in the far east (where it is cheap and the infrastructure is there) and then have it hand assembled in the UK with UK pickups (eg Oil Citys) and hardware 1 stage up from boggo. Finally a full proper set up (with proper fret dressing - the far east still struggle with this by and large) before dispatch - but you'd have to standardise the set up for production.

That way, you could keep thing below the magic bag of sand...

Antique_Guitars

impmann said:

/\ The other idea I had was to have the machining and perhaps the finishing done in the far east (where it is cheap and the infrastructure is there) and then have it hand assembled in the UK with UK pickups (eg Oil Citys) and hardware 1 stage up from boggo. Finally a full proper set up (with proper fret dressing - the far east still struggle with this by and large) before dispatch - but you'd have to standardise the set up for production.

That way, you could keep thing below the magic bag of sand...

Yes but then you become a bit like Rees guitar (who I like by the way) when you are importing 50% of your product already made and then just finish it and put it together to keep the price down. Problem is you are no longer a proper guitar manufacturer then in the strict sense it is a bit of a grey area. Anyone could start that now, in fact I started a few prototypes of that with the 335's I got form the chinese factory, the problem is that it is just not British guitar making because the stuff is not really made in this country just assembled.

Having said that though it seems to have worked for the Germans company Duesenberg.