Tools For The Budding Luthier

Nomad

Ordered some nut slotting files and other bits from Guitar Supplies in the Netherlands yesterday. I got a set of 8 Ibanez/UO-Chikyu gauged nut files, as well as a 0.6mm saw and depth gauge, radius gauges, fret rocker, and string height gauge.

I've been looking at the files for fretwork on Crimson guitars. It seems that he buys in files of various fairly fine grades, and then grinds bits off to make benign edges and adds wooden handles. Has anyone used the Crimson files, and are they any good? The ones I'm interested in are...

Levelling file with the wooden handle
Crowning and dressing 3-square file
Fret end bevelling file
Rectangular fret end dressing file

Also considering...

Notched straight edge for guitar, and the longer non-notched straight edge
Nut shaping file

I looked at the levelling beam, but I can make my own (in various lengths) for far less. Does the fret levelling file get good results, or is it tricky to use well? Would a levelling beam make the job a lot easier?

The thing that attracts me to Crimson is that several of the tools look to be high quality standard kit that's been fettled to suit specific jobs (like safe edges on the files), and that the rework is based on years of actual luthier experience. He might not be the cheapest, but lots of hands-on experience with the particular tools says something for me (and he comes across as a bit of a perfectionist in his videos, which suggests he likes to get his tool fettling right to make the job go better).

What about cutters for the fret ends? Crimson have one that's pretty expensive, and a cheaper version that's being punted as a fret lifter. I'm not planning on doing stainless frets. Do I need the dear ones, or would the cheaper ones be fine?

Do the above cover the main needs for working existing frets, refretting, and fitting new ones? (Some other stuff I can make, like a fretting hammer, and probably a fret wire bending jig if needed, but grinding files is one of those things that I'd be less inclined to consider fun.)

Any alternatives to consider? Any essentials or nice-to-haves that I've missed?

Corvus

Beams and files are both good. I like the beams for whole boards but diamond files are good for localised bits and fallaways.
My diamond files cost about half that one iirc. I bought a beam, it's just milled box section. Raw box section isn't as flat as you might hope but you have a mill so praps you're good there.

I have the Gurian type crowning tool but prefer a small diamond file. cleaner and less chatter. Haven't got anything special for fret ends, just small diamond files & jewellers files.
I made a notched edge from an engineers straight edge, the Crimson one doesn't seem an entirely terrible price but I like mine being able to stand up by itself.

I got a cheap fret clipper/lifter and have done small amounts of s/s frets without harm to it.

Possibly I'm just tight but it seems like there's an abundance of tools around that aren't really needed. My main tools are an ally beam and two diamond files. Simple and cheap. Much like their owner. Plus your sundry masking tape, wet & dry, smoothing/polishing things of choice.

For making nuts the slotting files are pricey but soon pay for themselves. Though mine were much less than they go for now. The rest is cheap standard fare. 8 thou razor saw, various files, jewellers type diamond files. Woodwork vice from a fleamarket and I got another tiny vice for a quid, mounted on a bit of shelving that can clamp anywhere.

Nomad

Thanks Bill - methinks I'll order some ally box section, then.

I have to confess that I've never been a fan of diamond sharpening tools. The few I've tried, I seem to destroy in short order (for sharpening knives). I prefer water stones or ceramic stones.

The Crimson straight edge looks like a really good price if it's straight to within 10 micron. I'm not fussed about it standing up by itself (could always make a doohickey to help with that in any case)..

I think the tools thing is about finding a balance between standard tools that do the job, and picking specialist ones that make it easier (or easier to do well or better). And, for some, there's the option to make tools as well. Sometimes, it seems that there is no escape but to spend the money - like with the nut slotting files. Virtually everything I've read has ended up saying proper gauged files are the only thing that really works.

Corvus

Interesting about diamond stones for sharpening, I was going to get some, currently using wet&dry on glass. I'll rethink that. I've shied away from water stones for cost so far. Trying to resurrect an old lathe/planer/circ saw/multi finger remover device which is taking some funds. Hope it'll be useful for guitars. Also hoping I can make my Bigsby handle tips on the lathe.
The flat diamond files seem to last OK for frets, an easy life & soft metal I suppose.

Definitely a balancing thing. Proper nut files are great. Toothed on-edge so they don't eat sideways (I use candle wax on the sides or they can drag a bit). I'm not keen on the nut crowning files though, for me it's as quick and more control/cleaner with a little flat diamond file, and the one file works with all sizes of fret. Plenty of folks use the shaped files though no doubt.

With a beam a squirt & wipe of WD or similar helps against clogging and a squirt shifts it easy too. The sandpaper lasts too, got over a dozen jobs on the current strips and life left yet. Not that it's a ton of money saved but just one less thing to faff with.

Nomad

Don't take my word as gospel on diamond stones - plenty of people that sharpen knives like them. Maybe the ones I used were cheapies, or I'm just cack-handed with them, but I was shocked at how quickly the rough bits disappeared. I'm also not keen on the need to use oil on the ones with steel substrates - oil collects crap and can gradually gunge up. With water stones, the water flushes the crap out naturally. Ceramic is much harder wearing and is also happy with water, but the lack of wear means the grit gets finer once they've been used a bit.

I have a set of Ice Bear Japanese water stones, which are excellent. For touching up knives, I have a Spyderco Doublestuff two-sided ceramic stone that started out as medium and fine, but is probably more like fine and very fine now. Either of those followed by stropping on leather with polishing compounds can get a razor sharp edge on high carbon steel.

What's this lathe/multi machine you're restoring?

Good tip on the wax on the files - I'll keep that in mind.

It's surprising how long decent abrasives last. I changed the belt on my little sander yesterday for the first time in months.

I got one of the concave crowning files many moons ago, and didn't like it. A bit rough and muckle feeling, and the benign edges aren't all that benign - really needs to fit the fret wire, I suspect. For that sort of job, I dare say the diamond ones will work, but I have a past aversion to get over with them, which is why I'm thinking of the fettled 3-square conventional file from Crimson.

I kind of like what he's doing with his tools and general approach - he's realised that he doesn't need to be precious about his custom guitar business and is happy to impart his knowledge and experience as a luthier, alongside selling the sort of hand-fettled tools he uses himself (and lots of tutorial vids via his luthier's guild thing). I'm also a bit impressed that he has actual apprentice luthiers. He's a bit of a UK Stewmac, but with a slightly different philosophy (more old school - Stewmac's gear tends to be more hyper-precise CNC jigs and weird doohickeys and gadgets). There may be a splurge at the end of the month.

Marktigere1

I have a good selection of Crimson Guitar tools and they have all been excellent without exception.

Fret levelling file

Spot levelling file

Sanding beam

Fret end bevelling file

Fret crowing file (rectangular)

Fret rocker

Rocking neck rest 

Fret rubbers

They are all great and have been used a lot.  Looking to add additional items as well since the quality control is very good indeed.

I also use Guitar & Wood from Portugal who also produce some good value luthiers tools.

Cheers

Mark

Marktigere1

Oh and for the record I use Waterstones to sharpen with.

Can shave with my plane irons after sharpening which I could never do before I invested in the waterstones.

400, 1000 and 6000 grit.

Ta

chickenbonejohn

I've just started doing tools...fretting saws, soft faced hammers and fret rockers...all British made!!! I'll be gradually adding to this, but I'm very careful about what I'm offering, and wherever possible I'm focussing on UK and EU made stuff.

 http://chickenbonejohn.myshopify.com/collections/tools

octatonic

On sharpening- usually the reason diamond stones stop working so well is they haven't been cared for- they can get gunked up fairly easily.

The biggest mistake people make is to put them away wet- I ruined a £180 DMT stone doing this- I learned the hard way.

You need to care for them by wiping them after every use and putting them away dry.

Every few times you should use a mild kitchen abrasive cleaner and something like an old toothbrush.

For a new edge I start with 300grit diamond stone, then go to a 1000 grit diamond stone (or sometimes a waterstone), then to a higher grit waterstone.

For keeping an edge I start with the 1000 diamond stone and go to a higher grit- usually 6000.

I also don't use a blade until it is completely blunt- blades get sharpened regularly, particularly plane blades.

Corvus

@Nomad it's a Coronet Minorette, made in the 60s, last moved then as well - my g/fs Grandad made her bedroom furniture on it. It was seized, rusty and generally well clarted up so I ended up stripping it. Lots of scraping & cleaning up, painting, made a frame for it. It has a jointer/planer, circ saw, disc sander and lathe.

http://www.alleykat.co.uk/images/stuff/coronet/minorette_main.jpg
http://www.alleykat.co.uk/images/stuff/coronet/all.jpg

I've had it running and made a couple of bits but there's a problem. The mainshaft has a cone which fits into a bronze adjustable bearing. The cone was in a pretty poor shape. I cleaned it and it ran OK, but then it started to grab/lock. I've just cleaned it more, wet & dry in the pillar drill, felt pen as 'blue' to see the fit in the bearing. Any hardening was probably long gone. A clever idea except there's no dust seals so crap can get in there.

http://www.alleykat.co.uk/images/stuff/coronet/mainshaft.jpg

This wkend I'll try again, going to use some Land Rover swivel ball grease and a drop of EP90 and try and run them in together gently. Fingers x'd.

Nomad

Interesting machine, and nice job with the restoration - looks very tidy.

Can't think of a luthiery use for the lathe other than maybe making pegs/dowels, but the other three functions should get regular use.

Corvus said:

I've had it running and made a couple of bits but there's a problem. The mainshaft has a cone which fits into a bronze adjustable bearing. The cone was in a pretty poor shape. I cleaned it and it ran OK, but then it started to grab/lock. I've just cleaned it more, wet & dry in the pillar drill, felt pen as 'blue' to see the fit in the bearing. Any hardening was probably long gone. A clever idea except there's no dust seals so crap can get in there.

http://www.alleykat.co.uk/images/stuff/coronet/mainshaft.jpg

This wkend I'll try again, going to use some Land Rover swivel ball grease and a drop of EP90 and try and run them in together gently. Fingers x'd.

Is the tapered section part of the shaft, or a separate bit that's fitted to the shaft? Is the bronze bearing (or bush, really) tapered to match it where they make contact? Adjustment is along the axis, yes? If so, then it's quite possible that it's designed to wear it will wear), and the adjustment is there to compensate for that. The little brass bit on the housing will be a cap over the oil way (or does it cover a grease nipple?).

Is the other (pulley) end of the shaft held in place somehow to prevent axial movement? If not, what stops it falling out? (Some sort of retainer on the threaded part?)

What's the diameter of the shaft, and the inside diameter of the housing that the bronze bush fits into (or outside diameter of the bush)?

If the physical match isn't good, a better plan to my mind is to use a very fine grinding paste to lap them, then clean off and lubricate with oil.

A better solution, although maybe not easy, is to replace the current shapes (shaft tapered feature and bush) with a tapered roller bearing. Extremely hard wearing, super smooth, sealed and permanently lubricated, and designed to take axial as well as radial loads. There are countless bearings out there, so there is a pretty good chance that something could be found to fit. The caveat is that some material might have to be removed to achieve the fit, depending on how it's constructed and the exact sizes involved.

Corvus

The pulley is held by grubs into recesses. The problem is the bush is worn inside and the cone isn't totally 'flat', but I've got a decent contact area now I think. It is designed to wear and is adjustable but it was pitted, scored and rough. I did use fine lapping paste, it matted the cone, so polished that back up.

That's a cap for an oil drip up top. It's going to need frequent oiling till the two bed in I think. Nothing to retain the oil and with an iffy fit it'll escape sooner. The Landy grease might help, it's quite fluid not thick & gluey. Drop of oil with it.

Taper roller might be possible but would involve some work. The inside of the headstock is smooth, no lip, so not sure how to retain it though they will be a way, with some work. If it comes to it I reckon the cone could be built up with weld and machined true, and a bush made. The shaft would be simple to make if it weren't for the 1MT taper inside I think. The fine threads on the bush for the castle nuts will be something old like a cycle thread, but so long as a thread & matching nuts can be sorted that'll be good.. I'll see how it fares with some careful running in though.

The lathe I can use to make odds and ends and try turning for fun (got an unused set of tools with it), but yes the planer/saw/sander will be the most use for sure.

Nomad

Rasps...

I have Surforms, but find they get clogged quite quickly, and can also be a bit of a fiddle to use - motion needs to be just right to get it to cut nicely. Been thinking about the Shinto saw rasp...

https://crimsonguitars.com/shop/luthiers-tools/luthiers-saws-and-knives/japanese-shinto-saw-rasp

Anyone used this? Any good?

I'm mainly interested in general shaping of flat or larger convex areas (eg, rough shaping of neck, MDF templates).

paulnb57

I bought a Shinto sawblade rasp recently, £19 from ebay, fine one side coarse on t'other, I wish I got one years ago, it's fab-u-lous!.....

Nomad

Thanks Paul. How is it for taking different 'strengths' of cut? As mentioned with the Surforms, I find the pressure and speed need to be in a rather narrow band to get them to work - quite hard to take lighter cuts, for example.

paulnb57

Ive just done a belly and forearm cut on a slab Strat body amd was very impressed, press quite hard and it really rips it off, ease up and lighter cuts were possible on both sides of the rasp, I'm really impressed, it's probably the best rasp type tool Ive ever used...I also modded the heel of a Strat neck which is slightly radiused to square to fit a Tele body using the rasp, again it did a really good job requiring little sanding.....If I were to lose mine I would replace it without hesitation....for £20 it's worth a punt....

octatonic

I've used japanese raps before.

They are pretty good but I prefer my Herdim rasps- they are a bit more controlled.

You can get them from Dictum.

Corvus

I like mine a lot, find it very useful. I think @WezV uses them.

WezV

I love the saw rasps, but I consider them disposable. I get about 5 or 6 neck carves out of each one, plus other carving duties along the way.

Used to use microplane rasps, and liked them a lot, but found they were not great on very dense woods as the teeth would flatten if you pushed down too hard. Its not really the rasps fault but I found the saw rasps more predictable

Nomad

Thanks all. I've ordered one of the Shintos. (Well, that and a few other things.)

So... sharp things like chisels, gouges and little planes.

All I've got in chisels is an appallingly bad set that were bought for hacking at crap when I had an allotment. I sharpened one the other day and it is nice and sharp, but I can't say how long it'll hold the edge. When I started on another one, I wondered when the burr was going to appear. I had a look at it with a loupe, and found that the end is actually squared off - much honing needed to bring it down. The other two turned out to be as bad. I'm not sure it's worth the time to sharpen them given that they're of unknown steel (and moulded orange plastic handles - probably B&Q own-brand).

In one of the Crimson vids, he mentions that he mainly uses two chisels - a 1/4" for small stuff, and a wide one (about 1-1/4") for bigger bits. Does that sound about right, or should I be looking at getting a set of 4 or 5 in a range of widths? I'm thinking mainly of scraping and squaring off pockets with push strokes than whacking lumps out of things with a mallet.

Any suggested makes that strike a balance between quality and cost? These look decent...

http://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-fatmax-chisel-set-5-pc/83232

Through tang seems like a good idea (even though whacking them isn't uppermost in my mind). Not sure about "chrome alloy ball bearing steel", though - I'd have thought high carbon tool steel would be more the thing.

Same for gouges. Not so sure what I'd do with them, other than using a fairly large one for initial carving of solid body tops (this appeals more than something involving templates and routing stepped contours). I appreciate that a range of sizes could have many uses, but I'm not seeing them at this stage (tool-buying noob luthier). If there are other jobs that go easier with gouges, please enlighten me.

What about small planes? I often see those little Ibex ones with the curved soles. Do I need a load of them, or is it a case of the large one for initial shaping and smoothing and a little one for the finer work? Would flat soled ones have much use in luthiery? Any other makes to consider?

WezV

If you have chisels, even cheap ones, just put some time into sharpening them.

You can buy cheap new chisels where the steel is as good as mid priced new chisels, but they are not honed and prepped as much.


But if you are doing that you are much better buying old chisels. Again they need work, but the steel will be better.

My best chisel is also very short. Its older than me and been resharpened a lot. It was very blunt when I acquired it, but after a bit of work holds its edge better than any other chisel I own, including some modern pricey ones