Neck joins, please educate me

WezV

customkits said:

When I come to do a dc junior special style guitar I'll be using a cap so I can get the joint in further under the cap as I don't like the fact you're routing quite alot of the tenon away when fitting a neck pickup.

I have done  similar to that.  I made a few guitars with super long tenon's about 10 years ago.  on one I wanted a cap

the neck was set even deeper into the body on that one as obviously the cap removes some of the support at the end of the neck

I don't think the super-long tenon really added much over a normal long tenon, either structurally or tonally... at least not unless you mount the bridge on it too, and then it was more like a through neck. so now I tend to either go full through neck - or a full width long tenon like this one

Danielsguitars

You can't use a full width joint on a set neck tele or strat so I've got to glue the fretboard on the body.

I forgot to say about that stupid short tenon which I don't like btw.

With a dc junior it was the fact of routing into the tenon for a neck pickup
The tendons aren't that long
Oh and I'm not using pickguards to show more wood of its nice looking
The bookmatched limba I've got cut out looks great.

I really haven't had a problem with neck hump and the playability and action is great.

I don't like seeing a fretboard stuck above the body either, unless it's a vintage replica I'll do what I like, it's nicer looking to me.
Also with hot hide glue there is no creep in the joints.

Sporky

customkits said:

You can't use a full width joint on a set neck tele or strat

Why not?

(that's a genuine question by the way)

ICBM

WezV said:

you can see on this neck break that the only place the neck has actually stuck is the fretboard

As that is a short tenon neck it would be totally hidden until the break happened - long tenon's are slightly better because you can see any gaps -  if you remove a pickup.

Dear god. That's shockingly poor even by Gibson standards.

And as you say, totally invisible from the outside… until the neck fell off.

I think I've seen the pic of the pocket with the side shims before, but not the corresponding neck tenon. Although it isn't impossible there's more than one like it - for some reason I remembered it as being a TV-finish guitar, but I may be wrong.

WezV

Sporky said:

customkits said:

You can't use a full width joint on a set neck tele or strat

Why not?

(that's a genuine question by the way)

I dunno, I have done it successfully.

customkits said:

Also with hot hide glue there is no creep in the joints.

not glue creep - wood will always move and shrink no matter how well seasoned it is.

Danielsguitars

Where the neck joins at the 16th fret you can't have a full width tenon, which is the full width of the fretboard when doing a set neck or you'd lose half your pocket like the bolt ons already have and I don't like that, if you like bolts use them, I don't so i won't.

You've lost some of the side pocket when you built that tele and I want a full pocket, I just like a full pocket better.

Use whatever works for you, I like all the results I've had so far, I'll stick to that.
I'll be updating my build thread next week so you can see how I'm building the tele, it's probably easier to see what I mean.

I'm using hot hide glue on this one to compare the tone to the strat build, I like to do alot of tone testing btw.

WezV

customkits said:

You've lost some of the side pocket when you built that tele and I want a full pocket, I just like a full pocket better.

That's fair enough, I did go through that thought process when I built it.  The important thing for me was that there was enough glue join remaining on the treble side, but this tele was about the minimum for me.   Its no less than a PRS and they are not known for weak neck joins so that's good enough for me.  But i do see what you are saying about the uneveness of the join - lots more on the bass side than the treble.  I don't have an issue with it though.  

The point I am making is you can make a full width tenon strat or tele, and it will work fine.  If you choose not to, that's an entirely different, and totally reasonable, statement

Tone testing on everything is great, but not if you only stick to stuff that has worked for you so far.

I have come around to loving the full width tenon method after years of trying lots of different styles.   There is a fullness to the tone I would swear I hear in every guitar with this neckjoin.  I still use many others though

Again, I hope you  don;t think I am being too unreasonable.   I tend to stay out of any builder philosophies in the made in the UK section, but if they are posted in making and modding then I consider them up for (hopefully good natured) debate

Danielsguitars

I put a sound clip of the strat up in my tele build thread
Same woods and construction as my tele for anyone interested.

Marktigere1

I like bolts with threaded inserts in the neck.

Why?  So should I need to ship the guitar I can remove the neck.

Why?  To prevent damage caused by impact with tarmac (

The inserts allow me to undo and tighten the joint with no fear of stripping a wooden thread.

ThePrettyDamned

I like set necks well enough but I'll be honest, I find screw in necks functionally adequate - beyond, really.

They allow you to change the neck, which is cool. They allow easier repairs (so a borked neck is more easily removed, or the neck more easily transferred to a replacement body should that somehow get knackered).

But also, they are easier for me to build at home, which is nice.

My strat doesn't have tons and tons of sustain, but it is by far the best sounding strat I've ever played - and I put it together from an eBay pine body, a gspbasses neck (which is wonderful), a finishing kit and some bodging of the neck pocket to accommodate the slightly wider neck. I don't know if having that join replaced by a glue in one would affect it.

Wasn't there a true bolt on neck once? I think BC Rich did it, whereby the neck was pulled into the body by a bolt, rather than screwed in. Looked interesting (actually, very good) and would guarantee a much more compressed fit than glue in or even screw on necks (which surely have a tighter compression anyway - whatever that is worth, which is almost certainly nothing).

This post is more to stimulate this debate, I am not an expert - actually a complete amateur expressing some thoughts.

GSPBASSES

Interesting thoughts on the neck joints here so I for I show you how I do my Gibson type and Fender type neck joints. First I think it’s worth a little look back in history, the weird and wonderful neck joints and sometimes total rubbish neck joints Gibson produce, come from years of producing acoustic guitars. So to them at the time it would seem obvious to carry on doing modified version of dovetails and tenant joints. Where as fender started from scratch and didn’t take anything from their acoustic side of the business. So we have ended up with two totally different approaches to fitting a neck to a  body. Both systems work fine, although I do think Gibson have got away with some very shoddy joints in their history most likely still do, but as the neck do not fall off that’s good enough to Gibson.

 I will start with my Gibson neck joint, this did not evolve over many years, this was a straightforward look at a Gibson neck joint of the Les Paul and SG decided it was total crap and I did not want anything to do with it, its over engineered and badly made most of the time. One other thing to take into consideration, I was always being asked is there is anything that can be done to the neck heel and body if I make somebody a Les Paul, to be able to make access to the higher frets easier. So that was my starting point. It was very easy to change over to full width full depth neck joint. The only minor issue was I could not bring the body binding up to the roundabout the sixteenth fret as it is on Gibson Les Paul but I didn’t consider that even worth worrying about. By taking this approach it was very easy to do a complete re- sculpting of the neck heel and body. Another issue I had with their joints, where the heel of the neck joint butts up to the body they glued end grain to end grain, that for me is a no-no most likely makes no difference but not for me.

A pair of Les Paul's beautifully sculpted neck joints.

One of my SG's with a fully sculpted neck body joint.

Flying "V"  with a full width and full depth neck joint.

You can see from the picture above the binding ends at the neck and does not go along to about the sixteenth fret.

                

     The neck joint on a Thunderbird bass beautifully smooth easy access to higher frets.

I will come back another time with my Fender neck.    

Danielsguitars

A few things i dont like on fenders like bolts, that's just me, I'm not a purist fender person so wanted set neck.
I'm constructing more like a Lp junior but with thinner tenon to keep the full pocket, I just like the look more, it's sunk in lower so you dont start with a heel like a brick before sculpting, definitely an improvement in comfort and playability
I'm also gluing the fretboard on the body as I don't like it stuck in the air, I'm trying to make it as comfortable as possible, i think it will keep the whole thing feeling slimmer.
I'll soon know, I'm doing it this week

GSPBASSES

The great thing about the Fender neck joint is Leo got it so right the first time there’s no need to try and modify or improve on it. I would say 99 percent of all the Fender style guitars I make have the original type of neck joint. There are a few exceptions, see the first photo where the corner has been in shaped slightly. This does make it a little bit easier to reach the higher frets but is never proved to be very popular. I do offer this option to my customers but very few take it up they prefer the standard Fender way of doing things.

I also make neck joints on Fender guitars where there is no neck plate, see the second photo. Again these are not over popular which I must be honest I find quite baffling. These carved bodies and necks are very comfortable to play and give you very easy access to the higher frets.

The great thing about necks that are held on with screws you very rarely if ever have a broken one. In the many years I’ve been doing guitar repairs I’ve only ever come across one neck that has been ripped out of the body. The guy who owned the guitar was going downstairs with the guitar round his neck when he slipped and fell down the last few stairs. The neck went between the banisters and he carried on going down. Consequently the neck was ripped out of the body. The body suffered no damage whatsoever I think the screw holes were made bigger but nothing much. As far as the neck was concerned the screws have been ripped out and one piece of maple been ripped off the heel. The neck was repaired very easily the holes were plugged with maple dowels, and the piece of maple that was ripped off was easily glued back in position. One would dread to think of the consequences if that been a Gibson.

Occasionally asked make Telecaster with set necks, and two H/B, the idea being Gibson sounds but prefer the Fender shape. When I make these I always make them with a fully carved body neck joint see the third photograph.

And of course if I do through neck Strat that also gets the full carving and shaping treatment.