Solid state valves revisited

ThePrettyDamned

Just interested, has anyone tried any yet? I suspect when I finally get me 6505 (many years from now...) I'll just revalve the lot with solid state valves and be done with it, but just wondering purely out of interest...

[Deleted User]

why would you buy a valve amp to put solid state valves in ? why not just buy a solid state amp if you want a solid state amp

ThePrettyDamned

darcym;116847" said:

why would you buy a valve amp to put solid state valves in ? why not just buy a solid state amp if you want a solid state amp

I have a solid state amp as it's the closest to that tone I can get without mega bucks.

Valves are expensive, poorer and poorer quality and bad for the environment. A solid state replacement that sounds the same, or really close, is an attractive proposition.

I suspect solid state amps have a different circuit design to a valve amp, so this would retain the circuit and tone, but make it more reliable and cheaper in the long run.

ICBM

darcym said:

why would you buy a valve amp to put solid state valves in ? why not just buy a solid state amp if you want a solid state amp

Because if what I think I know about valve amps and solid-state amps is correct, it's more the way the amp is built than the nature of the amplifying devices which matters. In simple terms a valve amp operating with solid-state devices should still sound like (or at least much more like) a valve amp rather than a solid state amp.

On top of that, it means you can experiment with different amplifying devices just by plugging them in, which is very difficult with standard solid-state amps.

I really do need to bite the bullet and try some of these...

One reason I haven't done so is because I genuinely like a lot of normal solid state amps, and don't have a problem getting good sounds out of them.

digitalscream

darcym said:

why would you buy a valve amp to put solid state valves in ? why not just buy a solid state amp if you want a solid state amp

Because taking a valve amp and putting these widgets in it doesn't magically turn it into something like a Marshall MG15.

What we generally know as "solid state amps" in the guitar world are actually solid state amps built to the lowest possible cost; there are, in fact, many different topologies. It's perfectly possible to make solid state amps with very similar circuit design to valve amps, and - surprise surprise - they apparently behave and sound very much like what we know as valve amps. That's basically what we have here with the solid state replacements for fragile glass bottles

Richardj

OK, I'm interested. Where can you get them?

Maxi

I know nothing about solid state valves but Im pretty surprised how little of the character of a said tube amp is to do with the little glass bottles

ICBM

Maxi said:

I know nothing about solid state valves but Im pretty surprised how little of the character of a said tube amp is to do with the little glass bottles

Probably not none, but not as much as you would think. The way a valve amp is designed overall - very high voltages, low currents, AC-coupled stages, single-ended power supply, output transformer, not much negative feedback - is entirely different from traditional solid-state amps, because transistors operate in a very different way from valves and it's easier (and cheaper) to design a solid-state amp very differently from a valve amp.

But if you look at a single gain stage - valve or transistor - it can be difficult to tell them apart. Thus, if you deliberately design a solid-state amp as if it was a valve amp, using the same type of circuitry and forcing the solid-state devices to work more like valves, you're likely to get something that sounds like a valve amp. Probably…! The proof of the pudding is in the hearing, of course.

It's a difficult one for me because I'm not as anti-solid-state as many people anyway, and so I may be easier to convince than some others.

digitalscream

Richardj said:

OK, I'm interested. Where can you get them?

It's only preamp valves at the moment, but two companies do them:

http://www.jetcityamplification.com/#!retrovalves/ctjr

http://eshop.amtelectronics.com/accessories/12ax7ws-warmstone-12ax7-tubes-solid-state-equivalents.html

Jet City have three different grades (according to the amount of gain they provide). AMT only sell one type of preamp valve replacement, but they are developing a 6L6-alike power valve replacement which, so they tell me, will be available in the spring.

ThePrettyDamned

I imagine they'll sound different, but if you play something like a Duncan power grid, which is a mosfet powered effects pedal, you'll know that a solid state preamp can sound valvey. It's, quite simply my favourite distortion ever. Thick, lots of sustain, cleans up well (not a valve character btw - lower the input volume below the threshold of distortion and lo and behold, it's clean!).

But, for example, there are people who have breadboarded proper preamps but using solid state components and they normally sound great, but not quite the same. That's using boggo transistors though, whereas dedicated valve replacements might work closer to that of a valve.

digitalscream

I've just finished experimenting with a new board based on the AMT preamp pedals (the C2 Cornford-alike and the P2 Peavey 5150-alike), running direct into my interface and into the effects return of my Jet City, and I can say that in terms of comparisons with the preamp of the Jet City the pedals sound brilliant - not identical, but a different flavour of the same sort of thing. While the C2 doesn't clean up particularly well (it gets a bit fuzzy and indistinct), the P2 cleans up just as well as the amp. I'm certainly more than happy to give it a go at a gig, and I've never said that about a pedal (or pair of pedals) before.

Next up is testing them with a solid state power amp...

Maxi

ICBM said:

Maxi said:

I know nothing about solid state valves but Im pretty surprised how little of the character of a said tube amp is to do with the little glass bottles

Probably not none, but not as much as you would think. The way a valve amp is designed overall - very high voltages, low currents, AC-coupled stages, single-ended power supply, output transformer, not much negative feedback - is entirely different from traditional solid-state amps, because transistors operate in a very different way from valves and it's easier (and cheaper) to design a solid-state amp very differently from a valve amp.

But if you look at a single gain stage - valve or transistor - it can be difficult to tell them apart. Thus, if you deliberately design a solid-state amp as if it was a valve amp, using the same type of circuitry and forcing the solid-state devices to work more like valves, you're likely to get something that sounds like a valve amp. Probably…! The proof of the pudding is in the hearing, of course.

It's a difficult one for me because I'm not as anti-solid-state as many people anyway, and so I may be easier to convince than some others.

 I cant deny that solid state sounds more clippy or that valves go from clean to saturated in a more gradual way . One way that solid state could improve on that is to be more complex in gain staging design where it matters most and borrow more from conventional valve amps in other areas . Valve amps can be quite simple and still sound complex where as a simple SS amp will show its weaknesses sooner ,  I doubt a pure SS amp will win our hearts soon unless they convince us that different is also better .

digitalscream

Maxi said:

 I cant deny that solid state sounds more clippy or that valves go from clean to saturated in a more gradual way . One way that solid state could improve on that is to be more complex in gain staging design where it matters most and borrow more from conventional valve amps in other areas . Valve amps can be quite simple and still sound complex where as a simple SS amp will show its weaknesses sooner ,  I doubt a pure SS amp will win our hearts soon unless they convince us that different is also better .

Again, though, the only basis you really have for comparison is the raft of cheap solid state amps. I guess the only solid state amps out there that seem to do it properly are the Retro Wreck and the AMT Stonehead; listening to decent-quality demos of them, they're pretty indistinguishable from valve amps to me.

ThePrettyDamned

Maxi;117348" said:

ICBM said:



Maxi said:

I know nothing about solid state valves but Im pretty surprised how little of the character of a said tube amp is to do with the little glass bottles Probably not none, but not as much as you would think. The way a valve amp is designed overall - very high voltages, low currents, AC-coupled stages, single-ended power supply, output transformer, not much negative feedback - is entirely different from traditional solid-state amps, because transistors operate in a very different way from valves and it's easier (and cheaper) to design a solid-state amp very differently from a valve amp.

But if you look at a single gain stage - valve or transistor - it can be difficult to tell them apart. Thus, if you deliberately design a solid-state amp as if it was a valve amp, using the same type of circuitry and forcing the solid-state devices to work more like valves, you're likely to get something that sounds like a valve amp. Probably…! The proof of the pudding is in the hearing, of course.

It's a difficult one for me because I'm not as anti-solid-state as many people anyway, and so I may be easier to convince than some others.





 I cant deny that solid state sounds more clippy or that valves go from clean to saturated in a more gradual way . One way that solid state could improve on that is to be more complex in gain staging design where it matters most and borrow more from conventional valve amps in other areas . Valve amps can be quite simple and still sound complex where as a simple SS amp will show its weaknesses sooner ,  I doubt a pure SS amp will win our hearts soon unless they convince us that different is also better .

How about the cleanyuppiness of traditional Fuzz pedals, like the axis fuzz? That goes from madly compressed mayhem to light crunch to gentle overdrive to sparkly clean with just the volume knob on the guitar, and not a valve in sight.

I think this view is because solid state amps have not been refined. The Bandit cleans up fairly well, though I use a bit too much gain to bother. It takes od pedals great for lead, 'pushing into meltdown' lead tones, or into the clean channel for vintage od goodness. And the Bandit gets a better metal tone than I've had from most valve amps, other than the all dominating 6505.

Its weak point is the clean, which is sorta like a fender twin. It's just dead clean, and very responsive. The bright channel doesn't like pedals, but that's not a problem for me. Still, for an amp that goes for less than a hundred quid used, it's got some really good sounds. If more time went into designing solid state amps, with high quality components, they could sound excellent.

The orange crush pro is a solid state rockerverb preamp into a solid state power section and supposedly sounds great.

But none of this would be an issue if there was a solid state valve plug-in that captured the electronics within a valve (after all, it is just an electronic component).

ICBM

The interesting thing is that if you look on a scope, or even listen, to a valve distorting and a transistor distorting in isolation without the rest of what makes a valve amp different from a solid-state amp, it's quite hard to tell them apart.

Good example: the Beatles' 'Revolution' fuzz sound is an overdriven *valve* microphone preamp. And yet to most people it sounds like a transistor fuzz pedal - because you're hearing it straight from the preamp to tape, not going via any normal amp circuitry.

They're not absolutely identical, but much closer than you would think if you compare a "valve amp" to a "transistor amp".

Maxi

digitalscream said:

Maxi said:

 I cant deny that solid state sounds more clippy or that valves go from clean to saturated in a more gradual way . One way that solid state could improve on that is to be more complex in gain staging design where it matters most and borrow more from conventional valve amps in other areas . Valve amps can be quite simple and still sound complex where as a simple SS amp will show its weaknesses sooner ,  I doubt a pure SS amp will win our hearts soon unless they convince us that different is also better .

Again, though, the only basis you really have for comparison is the raft of cheap solid state amps. I guess the only solid state amps out there that seem to do it properly are the Retro Wreck and the AMT Stonehead; listening to decent-quality demos of them, they're pretty indistinguishable from valve amps to me.

You could be right ...I suppose we are really talking about voicing vs clipping characteristics and voicing being the stronger tonal effect . I dont want to get too confused about how valves may effect voicing tho , I suspect im still missing a great deal of mojo concerning valves or transistors for that matter .

It would be some insight to see how the ones that sound closer actually differ schematic wise from the ones that are less convincing as well as how these SS tube widgets actually sound compared to traditional valves.

ThePrettyDamned

Another interesting concept would be a solid state design that accurately mimics the properties of, for example, old mullards.

Maybe impossible, maybe valves will always have that extra few percent (and they will certainly always be a nicer feeling thing to use - undeniably cool!).

monquixote

ThePrettyDamned said:

Another interesting concept would be a solid state design that accurately mimics the properties of, for example, old mallards.

I have one here: 

http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/pics/mallard.jpg

ICBM

This one's older - 1930s.

http://innovation.nrm.org.uk/globalmedia/NRM_CT_937204_2.png

fretmeister

I'm curious whether they will be less hissy than a really cranked metal amp.

ThePrettyDamned

monquixote;117544" said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Another interesting concept would be a solid state design that accurately mimics the properties of, for example, old mallards.







I have one here: 

http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/pics/mallard.jpg

Autocorrect fail!