Question on Conditional Job Offers

Ro_S

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

Cabicular

Ro_S said:

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

it's a dickish thing to do. And if your first act as an employee is to behave like a dick then more fool the employer for taking you on.
its my long experience that people who act like dicks straight off the bat almost never improve

Chalky

Cabicular said:

Ro_S said:

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

it's a dickish thing to do. And if your first act as an employee is to behave like a dick then more fool the employer for taking you on.
its my long experience that people who act like dicks straight off the bat almost never improve

Agreed. So when a dick interviews me, I draw the interview to an early close. They are very easy to spot. They think they are superior to you, but they are just punks.

I bet a lot of people draw your interview to an early close, don't they?

Cabicular

And there we have it..

Ro_S

Cabicular said:

Ro_S said:

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

it's a dickish thing to do. And if your first act as an employee is to behave like a dick then more fool the employer for taking you on.
its my long experience that people who act like dicks straight off the bat almost never improve

It's not ''dickish'' to try to negotiate the salary of a job offer if the salary amount offered isn't acceptable to one.   Same with any term or condition.

Maybe the employer should not offer a low salary.

These things all very much depend on the sector concerned etc.
 

Sporky

I think people may be looking at "the offer" in two different ways.

There's the informal offer, which is part of the interview/negotiation phase, and the formal offer which is what gets sent to once it's essentially all agreed.

I would suggest that negotiation and haggling is normal at the informal offer stage, but that by the time the formal offer it shouldn't have anything in it that hasn't been agreed already.

Cabicular

Ro_S said:

Cabicular said:

Ro_S said:

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

it's a dickish thing to do. And if your first act as an employee is to behave like a dick then more fool the employer for taking you on.
its my long experience that people who act like dicks straight off the bat almost never improve

It's not ''dickish'' to try to negotiate the salary of a job offer if the salary amount offered isn't acceptable to one.   Same with any term or condition.

Maybe the employer should not offer a low salary.

These things all very much depend on the sector concerned etc.
 

I'm talking about the scenario mentioned 
I.e you accept a job offer then get another one and try and play the employers off against each other for a better offer. No problem with negotiating the best salary you can at the interview/offer stage

Ro_S

Cabicular said:

Ro_S said:

Cabicular said:

Ro_S said:

It's the prerogative of the successful applicant to seek to negotiate a better a job offer if they wish to.  It's the prerogative of the employer to decline.  I don't see the problem. 

it's a dickish thing to do. And if your first act as an employee is to behave like a dick then more fool the employer for taking you on.
its my long experience that people who act like dicks straight off the bat almost never improve

It's not ''dickish'' to try to negotiate the salary of a job offer if the salary amount offered isn't acceptable to one.   Same with any term or condition.

Maybe the employer should not offer a low salary.

These things all very much depend on the sector concerned etc.
 

I'm talking about the scenario mentioned 
I.e you accept a job offer then get another one and try and play the employers off against each other for a better offer. No problem with negotiating the best salary you can at the interview/offer stage

Well, you responded directly to what I wrote at the quote at the top of this post.   I was talking about a successful applicant, not a new employee, nor about the OP's scenario.  
I agree, you don't try to negotiate after you've accepted their job offer and the terms and conditions offered.
The OP can use that first offer as leverage for the second offer, though.

Cabicular

would you be comfortable with the reverse happening to you?

Cabicular

I agree though
I don't think it's unreasonable to try and negotiate the best deal possible. Just not after an offer has been accepted

Ro_S

Cabicular said:

I agree though
I don't think it's unreasonable to try and negotiate the best deal possible. Just not after an offer has been accepted

Well that's between him and the employer involved in the first job offer.  They need not ever know.   The OP ought to, though, consult his contract to ascertain how and if he can extricate himself from the commitment he gave to the first employer.  I asked the OP what it said in the employment contract he signed and returned, but he hasn't responded.

In the OP's situation I would not have signed and returned employment contract at the stage he did.   I would've accepted the job in principle, and then signed the employment contract only when they had completed their formal checks and they'd provided him with an employment contract signed by them. 
It seems a bit odd for them to have issued the employment contract before they'd completed they formal checks. A formal job offer letter would've sufficed at they stage.
Until the job offer became unconditional I would not have signed the contract.  Why should I 100% commit to them if they can't yet 100% commit to me?  That's not equitable.
 
 

Troy

The time to negotiate is during the interview, not after a job offer has been made.

Ro_S

Troy said:

The time to negotiate is during the interview, not after a job offer has been made.

I completely disagree.   One does not negotiate or discuss terms and conditions during a job interview.

Chalky

Remember the interview is a two-way sales process.  You don't negotiate the final price until the selling pitch is complete and you've established the customer is keen to buy.

So negotiation comes after the interview.

Ro_S

Chalky said:

Remember the interview is a two-way sales process.  You don't negotiate the final price until the selling pitch is complete and you've established the customer is keen to buy.

So negotiation comes after the interview.

yup

dano

@Ro_S your comments this morning really appreciated. I'd signed the contract as it was one of the requirements of the pack of stuff to send back as part of the conditional offer. It's an interesting one as they have signed the contract before sending it to me, yet the job offer is still dependant upon security checks, references and medical.

So I'm still a bit confused. I have a signed contract of employment and in parallel a conditional offer based on fulfilling these requirements. If I fail one of these requirements then the contract is valid / worthless? 

Ro_S

dano said:

@Ro_S your comments this morning really appreciated. I'd signed the contract as it was one of the requirements of the pack of stuff to send back as part of the conditional offer. It's an interesting one as they have signed the contract before sending it to me, yet the job offer is still dependant upon security checks, references and medical.

So I'm still a bit confused. I have a signed contract of employment and in parallel a conditional offer based on fulfilling these requirements. If I fail one of these requirements then the contract is valid / worthless? 

I'm glad my input on this forum is appreciated by someone.

They gave you a signed contract of employment.  Noted.

I'm curious what kind of company this employer is.  Are they a pretty small employer?

Does the employment contract have any clause/s that will mean the job offer is voided if their checks don't come back in a way that's acceptable to them?
If the answer is no, then they may well be contractually liable to pay you wages in lieu of your notice period in the event they decide not to employ you.  lol.

You have returned the contract countersigned already, is that correct?
If 'yes',  have you been able to establish from the contract if there is a way you can get out of working for them without any penalty of any kind, should you decide to go with the other job offer?

What's the latest with the other job offer?

 

Chalky

Whatever its says in the contract about penalty, it won't be enforcible.

Ro_S

Chalky said:

Whatever its says in the contract about penalty, it won't be enforcible.

why not?

I doubt they'd attempt to enforce it, but why wouldn't it be legally enforcible?

Chalky

Enforcible in the sense that no court is going to side with the employer when there is no significant loss.  And what would be the cost of getting it to court? And how easy is the defence?  ("I've been under a lot of stress, here is my doctors note, my judgement is untrustworthy, I didn't want to start the job and deny someone else the chance when I know I would fail the probation period, etc") Sure there are odd cases where the employee is so rich it is worth suing them but I suspect that is not the case here.

But maybe the legal eagles on here with Contract/Employment Law backgrounds would disagree?