posh strats/teles/LPs etc

dindude

p90fool said:

dindude said:

p90fool said:

robgilmo said:

For me a posh guitar would be something very old. A lovely vintage Tele for instance.

A US Standard in other words, from an era before we started paying a "Custom Shop" (which is one of the biggest guitar factories in the world btw) to replicate it by bolting a $70 piece of alder to a $90 piece of maple.

Don't get me wrong, they're beautifully made, but there's a limit to how much care and attention you can give a few hundred dollars' worth of parts to make them retail for many thousands.

In the spring I put together a pretty much exact replica of my '63 Strat for £550, and that was at retail prices.

I decided I wasn't going to scrimp on anything and I didn't, I honestly don't know where I could've thrown more money at it.

I take it you must have finished (I.e painted) it yourself? And done a fret job, nut cut etc yourself for that price?

I bought a 2 month old Fender neck with tuners on here, and two cans of Olympic white nitro, some undercoat and sprayed the body myself. 

The £145 used neck obviously made a fair difference to my final outlay but everything else was brand new. 
Tbh even if the neck had been new I'd have struggled to spend 3 grand without encrusting it with diamonds. 

The rest was all brand new AVRI, a fabulous Wudtone bridge and a 2 piece American alder body with correct 1963 contours. 

It sounded spot on before I even plugged it in, I knew I'd nailed it first time. 

We can argue about infinitesimal differences all day, but it all leads to the inevitable conclusion that the likes of John Cruz are charging around a thousand dollars per neck bolt. 
 

I agree that 3k is pushing it but your original post is way misleading. You used a second hand neck, sprayed a body yourself, sourced all of the appropriate parts, put it together, and I assume did a fret level /nut job and set it up. The cost was far from the £550 or so you quoted if you factor in your own labour and if you were a company trying make a living out of it.

I'd say a more realistic comparison would be sourcing a pre-painted MJT body/neck (probably about £800 landed), top quality hardware and pickups (£300), then paying a pro to level frets, roll fretboards edges, fit a nut, assemble and set up (£200 minimum). So maybe £1300 to have a very decent guitar that's still some way off Custom Shop prices (and possibly off CS quality too).

The paint finishing, the frets, fingerboard edges, wood quality, are all the very things that make the difference between an average guitar and a sublime guitar, to ignore this is madness.

Using the same logic, you can buy a great quality Les Paul kit from Precision Guitar Kits for around £700 landed, but it's not a great Les Paul until a human hand turns it into one after many hours of sweat. 

Sorry, one of my pet hates is over-simplification of Leo's genius.

Sassafras

miserneil said:

While i like the look and sound of the CS guitars, I've owned a few and they've been great, what I can't get my head around is the Team Built/Masterbuilt thing. I realise it's to service a market but I recently saw a 'Masterbuilt' Relic Strat, a one off built by Jason Smith or one other of the CS 'names' and it was more money than the actual vintage equivalent Strat. 

Now that is just crazy to me.

Yes, but some people want their beaten up guitars to be new.
I know, I can't understand it either.

DrJazzTap

I've played a few custom shop strats. i spent a whole day in pmt trying out every price pointed strat. I tried out a custom shop heavy relic 69. Which did sound incredible
It was just hard for me to stomach pricewise. i couldn't justify a £3k guitar over a £1100 one which sounded near as dammit.

usedtobe

robgilmo said:

Isnt it nice to own something nice?

It is. But then some people actually prefer the downmarket stuff.. Each to their own, I guess..

gubble

Is this not the same situation as many things in life?

It doesn't cost much to make something fairly decent, but then the little improvements needed cost more and more?

Maybe an odd analogy but Motor Racing - people spend mega money eeeking out that extra hundredth of a second on a lap time. The small little margins cost the most money but make the entire package better.

bobliefeld

If Fender and Gibson didn't make £8k guitars then someone else would because some people want to pay £8k for a guitar.

It's not really about sound or playability or anything else.  Just like a £30k watch doesn't tell the time any better than a £10 one.  If you don't get it then you will when you make name partner at the firm.

crunchman

bobliefeld said:

It's not really about sound or playability or anything else.  Just like a £30k watch doesn't tell the time any better than a £10 one.  If you don't get it then you will when you make name partner at the firm.

You are right but there is a minimum you need to spend to get something decent.  A £30k watch will (95% of the time) tell the time better than a £10 one.  It will probably have a strap that will last more than a few months as well.  For a decent watch that's accurate and robust you probably need to spend around £150.   In terms of functionality the £150 watch will be as good as the £30k watch.

It's the same with guitars.  Up to around £500 you do normally see significant improvements.  At £500 you can get a perfectly good giggable guitar that anyone should be happy to gig with.  For a bolt neck Fender style guitar the figure might be £350 rather than £500 and for a set neck semi it might be £650 but it's around that value.  From £500ish to £2000ish you see small but still noticeable refinements as the price increases.  Above that then it becomes more about the cosmetics, the brand and the nice to haves - like expensive watches.

xscaramanga

For me (especially with Fenders) it's all about how good they are unplugged, which is mostly down to the wood. The setup can be fixed. If the guitar works acoustically but sucks plugged in, you can change the electrics, but a dead-sounding instrument can't be fixed with a pickup changed. 

I proved this to myself by trying both Bare Knuckle and Oil City pickups in my old Strat before finally admitting it was a dog and getting shot of it. 

You can get lucky and find a guitar that just sounds great unplugged at almost any price point, but I do think your odds of getting a good piece of wood improve the more you spend.

Evilmags

Last year the Mrs got me a Pink Custom Shop Telecaster as a present, having consulted with one of my jamming mates on neck, frets ect she used her card on my Coda account. Now I've played a lot of teles, as most of my jamming mates in London had them, and about half of them were shit, souless and screachy as fuck. The best I have ever palyed was a 54 body and electrics with a custom shop neck. It's tone really was special and had six grand been an option at the time I'd have bought it (and I don't really like Teles that much). That was about 15 years ago so fuck knows what it would go for now, but it really was special. 

US standard Teles are consistent and reliable, but don´t have that magic in the sound. My pink one, from the Custom Shop does. (and has a 10.5 board and big frets, compensated bridge bits ect). I´m focusing on this guitar because it is the most simple of designs. But the light ash body, excellent pickups and unbelieveable feel is enough to tell me that not all teles are equal. The bridge pickup never gives you sore ears for starters. 

Limehouse_Blues

I have a CS Strat and a Japanese Tele. The CS Strat has a modern radius and big frets and looks the business. The CS paintwork is, in my opinion, better than many independent shops (I previously had an MJT Strat, sold on here and while MJT's work is excellent for the price I think CS has the edge on finishing / relicing). The sanded neck on my CS makes it very comfy to play, no stickiness. The MIJ Tele is more faithful to vintage spec with 7.25 board and small frets. Apart from the obvious difference that one is a Strat and the other a Tele the main difference is the feel of the neck in the hand, with the MIJ Tele being a little stickier. Also, the MIJ tele's wiring did crap out on me once mid rehearsal which surprised me. I'd be shocked if that happened on a pricier axe.

As for Les Pauls I was lucky to have my R0 completely made over by Florian Jäger. It's now a very different instrument from the one that came out of the Gibson factory. Cost was non negligible (though still considerably less than having a luthier of Florian's caliber build from scratch). Once again, the most striking thing (apart from the sound) is the feel of the neck in the hand. It was the first thing a burst owner I know remarked on when he played it. In his hands the neck 'felt' right, more like the real thing and quite different from the regular Gibson CS finish.

The neck was re-set and board was replaced. Of course the board was just cosmetic but the neck re-set made a discernible difference to the sound. The state of the original Gibson neck joint was abysmal and really gives the lie to the idea that Gibson CS delivers a super premium product. The Gibson pickups were replaced with some by Amber that are even better (to my ears) than some of the other boutique sets I've played from bkp and ox4. I've played my Jäger R0 alongside a real 58 through the same amp and the sonic proximity of the two guitars is unreal. There's a vitality to the sound which is just really cool and surprising for a style of guitar I'd always associated with darker sounds. After the makeover it was like my R0 had been somehow unmuffled. Almost Tele like but fatter.

i'm fortunate to own some great guitars but am under no illusions. 'Custom shop' is to the guitar industry what business class is to airlines. Margins on business class seats are huge and often subsidise economy seats. Margins on CS guitars will be absolutely enormous and frankly you pay a lot for differences which, in a band with your amp cranked, are going to make scant difference to what you or the audience hears. We all know that you can do the job just as well with a Squier or Epiphone (as I did myself for years as a younger player). You can fly from A to B in economy but the flight in business or first may be more comfortable. Of course the extra fare you pay is not 'worth it' by any objective measure but that's hardly the point.

fwiw I think regular Fender CS represents decent bang for buck for a 'luxury' product (which we all know the mass produced electric guitar was never really supposed to be). Gibson CS is, however a rip off these days in my opinion. I picked up my R0 in 2013 for about what a US standard goes for these days. If I wanted or needed another high end Gibson I'd be looking at a used historic (pre 2015) and sending it to someone like Florian rather than pay what Gibson are asking for one of their true historics.

i've never owned a 'vintage' guitar but have played several and to my ears and eyes the very best modern guitars can deliver everything I want, sonically and aesthetically. In that, objective, sense I think vintage prices are even harder to justify than CS ones but then again I'd be missing the point because in that market sheer scarcity and 'cachet' influences the price even more. For some guitarists it's worth it, for others not.

none of this stuff matters anyway. It's all about having fun at the end of the day and I had just as much fun on my Squier Strat as a beginner in 1991 as I do on any guitar today.

Strat54

Right now on the Autocar forum the Fiat owners are slogging it out with the Ferrari owners!

richardhomer

@Limehouse_Blues - a really good/interesting post.

monoamine

I agree it is an issue of marginal gains beyond say £700 on set neck guitars.

I have owned so many cheapie MIJ Les Pauls, I like to think I have a decent feel for what makes an instrument "good enough" for my playing and budget.

But when I bought my '59 Les Paul Junior, it blew absolutely everything I owned or had played out of the water. There may be a whole lot of bias and subjectivity in that but it feels damn good to play and own something that is so very special to me.

p90fool

Evilmags said:

US standard Teles are consistent and reliable, but don´t have that magic in the sound.

I totally agree, they don't, but they're not vintage spec like yours either.

Your guitar is very lovely, all I would say is that you can get most of the way there via an AVRI, but nowhere near it with a US Standard, it's just not even trying to be the same guitar. 

Evilmags

p90fool said:

Evilmags said:

US standard Teles are consistent and reliable, but don´t have that magic in the sound.

I totally agree, they don't, but they're not vintage spec like yours either.

Your guitar is very lovely, all I would say is that you can get most of the way there via an AVRI, but nowhere near it with a US Standard, it's just not even trying to be the same guitar. 

Mine has a 10,5 board and fat frets. And crucially for the dusty end compensated bridge. Not that vintage. 

siraxeman

...but it's pink!

marantz1300

You can build a partscaster for a fraction of the price which is just as good with skill or luck.

You could also build a house for the fraction of it's price, but it' takes a  a lot of skill and work.

Evilmags

siraxeman said:

...but it's pink!

Double the awesomeness. It's a tele that someone took the time to devintage playingwise (what a lot of player want) but keep every essential tone factor. It has Nocaster pickups of the posh variety and an absolutley increadible unplugged tone. Now it was a present (but I have a custom shop strat, which while excellent is not quite magical) and my wife had a mate pretend to be me in talks with Coda (even got a discount) I would never have bought it on sight myself. But everything on it has been done with a level of detail and niceness that I have neer expreienced on a non vintage Fender. It is miles better than US standards and AVRIs. It is also better than most vintage Teles I´ve played. To be honest if this guitar had never fallen into my hands then I´d still be slagging teles. 

So well yeah, it is a simple design. But better wood, finishing and slower (CNC machines are much more accurate when they are not in churn mode) machines do seem to make a difference. 

But again, I´ve played loads of screachy horrible teles. Indeed that simple model has probably delivered more dissapointments than its younger brother. But the pink one is hands down bette than any strat I´ve touched.