New laws for Rosewood

IvisonGuitars

DamianP said:

guitars4you said:

DamianP said:

My main concern is exporting rather than importing.  99% of my work goes overseas. the majority to the US.

I have enough rosewood that I'm sure the mechanisms for import certification will be established by the time I need to order more.
Of more pressing concern is the registration of my current stocks and, most importantly, export certificates for the guitars I will need to ship in the next few weeks.

I'll call them now and report back.

waiting with interest

Rabs said:

guitars4you said:

Just arrived as a press release within teh trade

The MIA will attend a key meeting with CITES/Defra on 12th January followed by an international meeting facilitated by NAMM at the NAMM Show on January 18th.

Yes I got this mail too...   all very confusing...

And yes I am also wanting to know in terms of if I happen to sell a guitar overseas.....   I guess we will have to wait a bit and see what happens.

I've spent a not so merry few hours wading through the govt website which raised a few questions which I put to a very helpful person at the APHA.
Most of the information is available here:  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports


From a builders perspective, as far as I can tell the situation is as follows.

Unlike other EU countries there are no plans to require registration of current stocks of Rosewood.

To export a guitar you need to complete form FED0172 and enclose documentation that either proves that you purchased the wood pre 1/1/17 or that it was legally imported after that date.

It seems that they understand that providing a country of origin for existing stocks might be difficult although it will be easier if such information were available.  The country it was purchased from is likely to be sufficient for now.

It is regarded as a re-export therefore the fee is £59 per application. If shipping multiple guitars to the same address then the fee is £59 plus £1.50 per additional guitar. 

I have a guitar which will be ready to ship to the US in a few weeks so I plan to get an application in asap.


Of course the good thing is that they aren't yet in a position to issue certificates so all I can do is wait.  They hope that it will be possible by early Feb. 

Any idea how a private seller would fare in this, say if a guitar was sold into Europe or the US on eBay, would one need to factor the £59 into the shipping? And then fill out the form saying guitar was purchased in the UK?  

guitars4you

@DamianP   thanks for investigative work and report - Obviously different criteria regarding builders and retailers as you have to account for 'raw materials' as well - Will be interesting what comes back from NAMM and Cites meeting - As it stands I'm confident of no changes within EU for new/used guitars - But haven't got a clue outside of the EU at this stage

ChrisMusic

@Neil said:

So this would be a problem for anybody over here buying from Reverb etc in the US?

I posed the question to @iain.reverb , whose reply at the time is linked below (20 Dec 2016), not sure how things are panning out, the legislation and implementation seem pretty ill thought out IMHO.

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1320512/#Comment_1320512

Plectrum

ChrisMusic said:

the legislation and implementation seem pretty ill thought out IMHO.

In this country it's being implemented under executive powers rather than legislation.

Deijavoo

Please correct me if I am wrong too, but if you buy a guitar with Brazilian Rosewood in it, that has documentation to show that the Rosewood was bought by the manufacturers pre ban, (early 90s I believe?) then I always thought you were then not allowed to re-sell it whatsoever, inside or outside the UK?

Rabs

Deijavoo said:

Please correct me if I am wrong too, but if you buy a guitar with Brazilian Rosewood in it, that has documentation to show that the Rosewood was bought by the manufacturers pre ban, (early 90s I believe?) then I always thought you were then not allowed to re-sell it whatsoever, inside or outside the UK?

Yes (as far as I know), but the issue is about to be that this now applies to ALL species of Rosewood...  So now if you sell a guitar with Rosewood on it outside of the UK the you will need documentation to go with it...   And since no one has been providing it up until now, its going to be hard to prove..  And if you try and send it without the correct papers it can be confiscated and destroyed.

Its all a bit hazy at the moment as to what exactly is going to happen and how its going to be implemented. But we should know more in a few weeks.

Deijavoo

Sorry, I worded my response badly. What I meant to add was that if this is the way that BRW is supposed to be managed and the same will apply to all rosewood, then importing reissue Gibsons and Fenders is going to either cost a bomb, or die a death. Also is the law on re-sell actually going to be enforced? Not in the immediate future I'd imagine but at some point I guess it may. 

I had seen the other threads on here recently but didn't feel like chipping in with such gloom. I feel up to it now.

  

Deijavoo

Corksniffing on illegal trade websites in 50 years over an Indonesian Squier with REAL rosewood.

I can see it now. Thankfully I won't be around to actually see it.

Rabs

I bet theres one certain effect from all this..  "genuine" Rosewood equipped guitars will now come with that slight extra premium..  Well its endangered now so worth more than it was four days ago     (isn't that how it works  )

And a guitar like this...  Yikes

http://i1173.photobucket.com/albums/r588/Rabs2010/maxresdefault_zpstkxvwpcw.jpg

We will just have to wait and see how they decide to enforce it..

Baked Maple anyone?

crunchman

Deijavoo said:

Please correct me if I am wrong too, but if you buy a guitar with Brazilian Rosewood in it, that has documentation to show that the Rosewood was bought by the manufacturers pre ban, (early 90s I believe?) then I always thought you were then not allowed to re-sell it whatsoever, inside or outside the UK?

BRW is CITES appendix 1 while the other rosewoods are Appendix 2.

It's crossing borders that is the issue.   AKAIK pre-ban BRW guitars that are already within the UK (the EU until Brexit) can be sold within the UK (EU).  The EU actually goes beyond the CITES requirements.  The CITES requirement is from 1992 for BRW when it went on the CITES list but the EU bans commercial import/export of anything after 1947 (the same date as ivory).

You legally could go to the US and buy a pre-CBS strat with BRW board and bring it back as your personal possession (you might need some kind of paperwork), but you would not be allowed to legally sell it again in this country.  If you croaked, your kids wouldn't legally be allowed to sell it either.  I'm not sure how bothered the authorities would be in that kind of circumstance, and how they would be able to prove that it hadn't been here for 50 years.  If you do buy one that has been here 50 years then it's not an issue as long as you don't take it out of the UK.

They need some kind of rationalisation.  You should be able to apply for a "passport" for a legal instrument, and that should be able to stay with the guitar.  It would simplify things massively but it would remove the opportunity for the government to gouge you for £60 every time you want to export something so I doubt they will do something that sensible.

dindude

https://blog.andertons.co.uk/guitars/cites?utm_campaign=170105-SPE-CITESGuitarists&utm_source=emarsysemail&utm_medium=email&sc_src=email_1083877&sc_lid=81143830&sc_uid=wjioI6DppC&sc_llid=13207&sc_eh=b7df1d23ba4e60391
This is pretty concise and easy to follow guitar related info. 

guitars4you

dindude said:

https://blog.andertons.co.uk/guitars/cites?utm_campaign=170105-SPE-CITESGuitarists&utm_source=emarsysemail&utm_medium=email&sc_src=email_1083877&sc_lid=81143830&sc_uid=wjioI6DppC&sc_llid=13207&sc_eh=b7df1d23ba4e60391
This is pretty concise and easy to follow guitar related info. 

that is great news - I dare say that as a big concern Andertons have taken some 'legal' advice both within the trade like the MIA and external advice - my understanding is now confirmed - that as a retailer I can sell any guitar within the EU (Brexit might impact on this as and when and when is more likely) and no paperwork required - But without additional paperwork I can't sell outside the EU - Slight challenge to say Switzerland, but I have sold a few guitars to Japan, NZ, Oz, Canada and USA so any pending sales will probably now be null and void until NAMM, MIA and CITES sort out a deal

guitars4you

with reference to above comments from myself, the blog from Andertons and @dindude ;

It is now safe to assume we can all buy sell and trade new guitars within the UK and EU - both via couriers and/or travelling with them - However it will now require a CITES certificate if you purchase any guitar from say the USA - The onus is on the seller to supply the certificate, but since the guitar will travel through the customs official at both the USA and the UK, without such a CITES certificate you run the risk of the guitar been confiscated - Bringing it back on the plane with you appears to be okay

The above appears to be the policy for the sale of new and used guitars - I don't know how it goes on for luthiers buying the actual raw materials - But the sale of the actual completed guitar within the EU needs no additional paperwork

We now have to wait and see if a meeting at NAMM in a couple of weeks between the MI Industry and CITES will paint a clear and easy picture for the future regarding both new and used guitars

RaymondLin

Taylor guitar is going to be even richer due to the increase demand for ebony.

WezV

RaymondLin said:

Taylor guitar is going to be even richer due to the increase demand for ebony.

And even with bobs efforts, how long will that last?

RaymondLin

WezV said:

RaymondLin said:

Taylor guitar is going to be even richer due to the increase demand for ebony.

And even with bobs efforts, how long will that last?

Until they ban that too, which surely will be next.

jaymenon

On a practical note, if I buy a guitar neck with a rosewood fingerboard from say Warmoth and have it couriered across to the UK - Warmoth will include a CITES certificate.  

But will I have extra difficulties / extra taxes importing it into the UK?

mistercharlie

In Germany you have to apply for your own import papers. I skipped it and went with an ebony FB instead (also for a Warmoth neck). 

darcym

I went to see the CITES team in Bristol a few weeks ago before importing a Warmoth rosewood neck for my super strat. 
They are members of a government group that looks after endangered species and wildlife and their office was not far from me so I made an appointment. 

For the average buyer and player who travels around with this guitar, the CITES stuff is really not a problem, it's only as a mass sale, or someone who will export from the USA only that this is a problem for. After a really helpful conversation I got an idiot friendly email confirming the rules for someone buying a guitar/guitar parts with rosewood, and it's really not that bad unless you are a business importing / selling guitars on a mass scale.

I'll cut and paste the useful parts of the email here, as it really does make things a lot clearer and easier to understand.

[quote]

There has been a great deal of confusion and misinformation regarding rosewood.

In brief, as a result of decisions made at the last CITES Conference of the Parties (Johannesburg) in 2016, all rosewood species of the Genus Dalbergia, were placed onto CITES Appendix II, for all their forms (alive, dead, parts and derivatives), with effect from the 02/01/2017.

This is with the exception of Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra), which has been on CITES App I since 1992 and will remain there.

CITES permits (import/export licenses) will be needed to move rosewood products from country to country, however CITES permits are not needed for movements between EU member states, only for entry exit to/from the EU as whole.

There is also a particular caveat in that non-commercial movements of rosewood pieces, under 10Kg in weight, are absolutely exempt from CITES control and do not need permits. A private individual moving his own personal musical instrument, would not require a CITES permit.

If its Brazilian Rosewood, then the above 10KG absolute derogation doesn’t apply, but terms of the EUs derogation for personal effects will then apply instead-please see the linked TRAFFIC guide to CITES in the EU: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570894/referenceguide_en.pdf   the personal effects derogation can be found on pages 72-79, summarised in table form on pages 78-79.

Sales controls also apply to pieces made from Brazilian Rosewood, if the piece is made after 1947; then a formal sales license, called an EC or Article 10 (A10) certificate needs to be granted before the piece can be used for any commercial purpose (i.e sale).

[/quote]


Basically if you're buying a guitar/guitar part - it's really not a big deal and no paper work is required.
if you're sending a guitar in the EU, thats fine also, no paper work from buyer or seller
if you're sending a guitar/parts from the USA, you need an export certificate, and unless your wood is Brazilian rosewood, or your sending a huge amount of it, it's really just a small paper exercise with very little hassle of "where did this come from" especially on an old guitar made before 2016.

Hope this helps, it made life really easy for me, and I've now had gutiars shipped from the states, and guitar parts shipped from the states in Warmoth with total ease.

crunchman

If you are buying a guitar from the US, my understanding is that it's not just the exporter who has to get an export certificate.  You also need to get a UK/EU import certificate.  I think @guitars4you is the expert on this stuff.