Do guitarists still view buying a solid state amp as something best avoided ?

Sessionman

ICBM said:

Sessionman said:

The Lead 75 was Marshall's answer to the Sessionette:75!  Neither had CC.  It had all the same features, placed in less obvious locations.

Yes, definitely . They saw the success of the Sessionette and tried to nick it! Much as they did with the 5F6-A Bassman and the Watkins Dominator twenty years earlier. I have to say that personally I prefered the Marshall, but it was nowhere near as popular as the Sessionette. It does have one big improvement - a ply cabinet - and is very well made, but if anything it sounds more dated now that the trend has moved back away from very tight distortion sounds and into looser 'swampy' ones.

Sessionman said:

Another reason some of the early channel switching amps did not please players, is due to the simple fact that their EQs were placed PRE distortion.  Remember, POST distortion EQ placement had not been thought of yet, back then. 

Compared to a distortion pedal in front of the amp (POST distortion EQ), which players were more used to the tone of, they sounded rather 'messed-up' especially if the amp is set to deep distortion - Sessionette too.  The same problem that causes dislike for the distortion channels of the Fender Blues Deluxe and Hotrod Deluxe now.  Both those Fenders still have the EQ placed PRE distortion!

Yes - I'm one of the strange people who likes the Drive channels on these amps, exactly for that reason - they sound like overdriven Fenders and not like Marshalls. Although post-distortion EQ placement had been around since the Marshall 2203, even if you don't count the Bassman/non-MV Marshalls (which distort at the tone stack driver before the power amp, with a hot enough input signal). The odd thing is how long it took designers to realise that…

The Marshall's switch to POST distortion EQ was to resolve the inability of PRE distortion EQ's lack of tone control once in deep distortion settings.  The EQ's effect was totally washed out by the time a gain booster was placed between guitar and amp!

The Blues Deluxe circuit topology is the same as a Sessionette -  the latter a 13 years earlier design.  Despite Sessionette's huge sales, I think the lack of 'Constant Current' speaker drive was its main downfall... coupled with, for the time, its PRE distortion EQ.  But everything is clear with the benefit of hindsight.

Sessionette was my first SS amp design and it was truly a struggle, after six months, to keep up with demand.  And where we were based (Basingstoke) was an expensive 'white collar' area to make such a product.  But, it was the right product at the right time and a very large proportion of those original customers are STILL using them!

In light of the fact that you like the more 'Roy Buchanan' type of distortion - PRE distortion EQ - where it sounds more like the power tubes being overdriven... it would be very interesting to see the look on your face when you hear my latest incarnation of the original Sessionette:75.  It now has much noise reduction generally, improved reverb tone and CC in the power amp!  Sounds just like an old valve amp played too loudly.  It's actually now the RetroTone Upgrade that we offer and do about five a week!  

Here's me at a jam on my Sessionette playing my '63 Tele: http://www.award-session.com/audio/Live_RetroTone_Blues_Solo_1.mp3

Yes, I know it's mp3 computer reproduction, but it's a good indication of how that amp has finally had it's design finished properly and gotten into the valve class of tone!  BluesBaby can achieve the same standard, but with POST distortion EQ flavours.

Sessionman

dindude said:

Ah nostalgia ! My first serious amp was a rockkette 30, my elder brother had the sesionette 75. I would serioulsy like to try a Blues Baby one day.

The amp EC used (two) to record his famous August album and produced his only No. 1 hit!  Here's some famous Sessionette/Rockette memories of the time! http://www.award-session.com/audio/80s_Hits_Sound_Clips.mp3

Probably many more too... Sessionette had more success than many think... for just a 'tranny' amp! 

Thanks for your custom way back then... truly appreciated! 

ICBM

Sessionman said:

In light of the fact that you like the more 'Roy Buchanan' type of distortion

AAAAAAAAAAARGGHHHH! NOOOOOOOOO!!!

I *hate* Roy Buchanan's sound. The worst noise ever to come out of an electric guitar.

It's nothing to do with the EQ being pre-distortion - in fact since he used a Tweed Deluxe there's really no EQ anyway! - it's the horrible grating metallic clanging shrill tonality (and the awful over-bent notes too, for that matter). I'd rather stick needles in my ears…



(Where's richardhomer when you need him?)


Now Neil Young on the other hand… that's a *great* Tweed Deluxe sound - albeit one with 6L6s.

Sessionman said:

The amp EC used (two) to record his famous August album and produced his only No. 1 hit!

And also an utterly dreadful sound! The definition of horrible 1980s "tone"...

57Deluxe

Sessionman said:

The Brits?  Well, always more happy to put stuff down.  Don't want to be first to like things.  Unloving of change.  Frightened of saying their (Alpha male forum ruler) mates could be wrong.

And too darn right! All those Happy-Clappy evangellistic Yank product launches from MS, Apple, etc over years for what turns out to be a somewhat flawed design only to be updated within months has made us so.

ALSO; in 60s we were starved of the top brands of US amps and had to rely on spurious home brands of which two rose to dominate but were largely not always practical or affordable for majority of home users. The cheaper, more accessible stuff were mostly SS with terrible circuitry/fizzy performance, so we grew up revering those that could and did turn a classic tone with those 'proper pro' amps.

Mythology aside, is similarly one of the main reasons we do not all play Hofners or Burns or SynthAxe in mass numbers nowadays too.

professorben

ICBM said:

Sessionman said:

In light of the fact that you like the more 'Roy Buchanan' type of distortion

AAAAAAAAAAARGGHHHH! NOOOOOOOOO!!!

I *hate* Roy Buchanan's sound. The worst noise ever to come out of an electric guitar.

It's nothing to do with the EQ being pre-distortion - in fact since he used a Tweed Deluxe there's really no EQ anyway! - it's the horrible grating metallic clanging shrill tonality (and the awful over-bent notes too, for that matter). I'd rather stick needles in my ears…



(Where's richardhomer when you need him?)


Now Neil Young on the other hand… that's a *great* Tweed Deluxe sound - albeit one with 6L6s.

Sessionman said:

The amp EC used (two) to record his famous August album and produced his only No. 1 hit!

And also an utterly dreadful sound! The definition of horrible 1980s "tone"...

You prefer Youngs tone over Buchanan??!?!


I can no longer trust anything you say, you need to hand back at least half of your wis. 

ICBM

professorben said:

You prefer Youngs tone over Buchanan??!?!

I can no longer trust anything you say, you need to hand back at least half of your wis. 

Gladly . I prefer *anyone's* tone over Buchanan's…

Just thought it was funny that Sessionman used it as an example of a tone I would like, whereas in fact it's one I detest to the point it sets my teeth on edge even thinking about it. Horrible sound.

You do know he used a Telecaster, don't you?

samzadgan

its all about what sounds good regardless of technology...i personally prefer tube, as nothing ive played has sounded as good as my Matamp...and im not talking about recording, thats not really important to me, its about what it sounds like when i stand infront of my half stack and turn it up full...nothing can beat it.

on SS side though, i would happily substitute in an old Peavey Studio (130w) version through a good 4x12 (not V30's) and I can get close...also some of the old (more pricey Sunn and Acoustic) can get there too. Out of the new breed the Orange CR120 head is great too. No issue with purchasing any of these, but they would be a back up to my main amp.

Then there's digital...i dont get on with that at all. I'll admit on a recording or in a situation where you're hearing the mic'd version it could sound great...but again, my personal concern is how it sounds and feels in person...and they dont even come close to old (and some new) SS amps or tube amps.

If i was a recording musician, a session musician, or even a long distance touring musician, then I guess my priorities and choices would probably be a little different.

Dopesick

The Quilter Toneblock 201 I got a couple of months back is the best solid state amp I've ever owned, and as a back up I won't need anything else. It lacks the sheer girth and weightiness of my Matamp but I can dial in a lot of different tones. It takes pedals flawlessly. The EQ set up is a little strange but after a quick toy around it's very easy to work out. Plus it's light as a feather (well, a very heavy feather).

I was tempted to give one of those Hilbish solid states a go, and I probably would've pulled the trigger if it weren't for the Quilter.

I've also managed to get good sounds out of the Orange CR120 and the Randall RG solid states. Not the greatest but definitely giggable if it came down to it.

dindude

professorben said:

ICBM said:

Sessionman said:

In light of the fact that you like the more 'Roy Buchanan' type of distortion

AAAAAAAAAAARGGHHHH! NOOOOOOOOO!!!

I *hate* Roy Buchanan's sound. The worst noise ever to come out of an electric guitar.

It's nothing to do with the EQ being pre-distortion - in fact since he used a Tweed Deluxe there's really no EQ anyway! - it's the horrible grating metallic clanging shrill tonality (and the awful over-bent notes too, for that matter). I'd rather stick needles in my ears…



(Where's richardhomer when you need him?)


Now Neil Young on the other hand… that's a *great* Tweed Deluxe sound - albeit one with 6L6s.

Sessionman said:

The amp EC used (two) to record his famous August album and produced his only No. 1 hit!

And also an utterly dreadful sound! The definition of horrible 1980s "tone"...

You prefer Youngs tone over Buchanan??!?!


I can no longer trust anything you say, you need to hand back at least half of your wis. 

I'm with ICBM here, Youngs Tone is all shades off awesome, Buchanan is nails down a blackboard.

Telejester

ICBM said: my

professorben said:

You prefer Youngs tone over Buchanan??!?!

I can no longer trust anything you say, you need to hand back at least half of your wis. 

Gladly . I prefer *anyone's* tone over Buchanan's…

Just thought it was funny that Sessionman used it as an example of a tone I would like, whereas in fact it's one I detest to the point it sets my teeth on edge even thinking about it. Horrible sound.

You do know he used a Telecaster, don't you?

Buchanans tone is the guitar equivalent of nails dragged down a chalkboard, just shocking.

HarrySeven

*looks at vast stash of '60's, '70's and '80's Solid-State amps*

Errr...no.

In fact, today at work, I will mostly be tinkering with this.

NB. It's actually not fully SS (Valve front end and SS Output stage).

Funkfingers

Bridgehouse said:

it's a vicious circle. 

Solid state amps are rubbish compared to tubes say guitarists

Nobody is buying solid state amps so we won't bother investing in their development say manufacturers

It's not like they couldn't - bass amps are massively innovative esp with class D power amps, but hey, bass doesn't require much in the way of good tone does it? It's just thump thump after all...  hmmmm

Dat's me. Valves for electric guitar. Class D for bass. Digital modelling for the Melody strings half of the Chapman Stick. Some of my pedals probably use granular technology for improved pitch tracking. 

Whenever I play through solid state guitar amplification, it feels as if something is missing. Even the glorious sonic spread of a Roland JC-120 Jazz Chorus pales once the Chorus effect is switched off.

Some of this is habit. The familiar is comfortable. No need to adapt to change. No need to engage one's brain.

On the other hand, the all-day sustain of a MESA/Boogie Lead channel is pretty addictive. Gimme some more. Too much is not enough.

professorben

@ICBM ;
@Bridgehouse ;
@dindude ;

apologies. 

PAT Buchanan is the guy I'm thinking of, session guy in the 80's (cyndi lauper, hall and oates etc) 

peteri

I'm a valve guy.

However best recorded tone I've ever had, back in (about) 1990 - Peavey Transtube Bandit, ok bit boxy in the room - but amazing sound out of the headphones - just wonderful.

I wonder how much is as others have said because of the lack of investment.

I have a Carr Sportsman that cost me around £2k at Coda last year - love it sounds warm, thick, glorious.

If a manufacturer targeted that market with a bit of a saving - so say £1400-1500 and made something similar s/s, would it sound as good?

If it does, I'm interested - but it will have to compress and sag the same. If it doesn't - and doesn't have the same resale I'm not.

I'm afraid both sides of the market are voting with their feet and not committing to s/s. That said - I don't see why it's a problem,  the amps produced today are remarkable and so much better (in terms of choice etc) than 20-30 years ago.

Why does it matter if it's s/s or valve? - I can still buy valves and because I can they'll hopefully get made.

Telejester

So what was the stiffest,harshest, most sterile and shitty toned solid state amp you can remember that produced the tones that ensures guitarists only look at tubes these days ?

Bridgehouse

Telejester said:

So what was the stiffest,harshest, most sterile and shitty toned solid state amp you can remember that produced the tones that ensures guitarists only look at tubes these days ?

Torque

professorben

Bridgehouse said:

Telejester said:

So what was the stiffest,harshest, most sterile and shitty toned solid state amp you can remember that produced the tones that ensures guitarists only look at tubes these days ?

Torque

Oooh I loved my Torque T1000 combo. 
Specially with my Tele..........

DF-2 in the Fx loop. 

Telejester

Some of the drive channels on solid state fender combos from the 80s must be right up there with some of the worst guitar tones ever conceived, funny enough the hrd drive channel which is full tube is atrocious too.

professorben

Telejester said:

Some of the drive channels on solid state fender combos from the 80s must be right up there with some of the worst guitar tones ever conceived, funny enough the hrd drive channel which is full tube is atrocious too.

Brand consistency. 

ThePrettyDamned

Telejester said:

Some of the drive channels on solid state fender combos from the 80s must be right up there with some of the worst guitar tones ever conceived, funny enough the hrd drive channel which is full tube is atrocious too.

I like the hot rod deluxe drive channel... 

Best distortion on an amp ever is the dual rec. Not sure how close you can get to that from a solid state amp but it'd be interesting to find out. 

Best clean tone i've heard was probably a silverface head from the 70s. Went into a 4x10 tweed cab that was new, Cor, that sounded nice. 

Best in between dirty clean is my vox ac15 or a JTM45. 

It'd be interesting to see how close solid state would get, but it caters only to the lower end of the market. The more pricey solid state amps are generally aimed at jazzers and clean players. 

@ICBM solid state dual rec red channel modern. Can it be done?