Odd VHT Special 12/20RT repair diagnosis from Thomann!

Dodge

So my 4 month old VHT Special 12/20RT is winging it's way back from Germany after a warranty repair from Thomann.  The convenient 9V power outlet had a strange fault when if you connect a pedal to it, it would be powered but when you plug the pedal output into the amp input, the 9V supply would disconnect with lots of nasty noises coming from the amp.

Their diagnosis was to replace a 12AX7 and replace the boost footswitch socket, even though neither was a problem.

What are the chances it will be going back again I wonder...

Dave_Mc

My first special 6 was dodgy and I had a similar problem. I think they claimed they sent it to VHT (so probably/possibly not Thomann's fault) and they basically swapped a valve and cleaned the socket IIRC and I'd tried that myself and it didn't work. Needless to say it went back again and I wasn't best pleased. It's little enough fun parcelling things up to send them back once without having to do it twice.

ICBM

Sounds to me like they couldn't find anything wrong with it so they made up some stuff.

What pedal(s) are you running from it?

It could be caused by a positive ground or positive jack polarity pedal being connected to a supply with negative ground and polarity - that will short out the supply when you connect the signal ground via the amp input. If it's a fault which didn't occur originally but later did, with the same pedals, then possibly something has shorted to ground inside the amp.

Dave_Mc

I dunno about the OP's amp, but there was definitely something wrong with mine which was apparent all the time, and even a cursory check would have (a) shown them that and (b) shown them that their "fix" did absolutely nothing to help. Either they had trouble with the English in the return form I filled out, or a more complex fix would have taken too long (or it was just short of closing time on a Friday) and they hoped I'd just give up.

Wasn't best pleased, although to be fair when I returned it again they sent me a replacement. But if they were going to do that it'd have been handier doing that at the start, they had to pay European shipping 4 times on an amp that only cost just over £100 )

Dodge

I'm not sure Thomann ever return stuff to VHT, I'm fairly sure they get it direct from China.

My Special 6 1 x12 cab had a duff speaker which Thomann return 'no fault found'.  I couldn't be arsed to return it again, so I just dropped in a Jensen which was always my intention!

The 12/20RT is an odd one.  It's not the polarity thing either, I used a Hotcake, a wah and a tuner all of which had the same effect.  Unfortunately, I don't know it ever worked as it was the first time I tried it!  )

Anyway, even with my rudimentary electronics skills I find it highly unlikely a valve and a footswitch jack is likely to fix it.  The sad thing is, it looks like they've got no stock so I'm unlikely to get a replacement. 

ICBM

Dodge said:

The 12/20RT is an odd one.  It's not the polarity thing either, I used a Hotcake, a wah and a tuner all of which had the same effect.  Unfortunately, I don't know it ever worked as it was the first time I tried it!  )

Hmmm… sounds like something is mis-wired inside the amp, since the symptom does sound like a short when the circuit is completed via the signal cable from the pedal to the amp input. It could be that the supply jack is connected backwards, possibly.

The schematic indicates that the supply circuit is grounded (which it doesn't need to be), so if Thomann send it back and it still isn't right, probably best to find a tech who knows what he's doing to either lift the ground connection to that part of the circuit or reverse the jack, depending on which gives the correct labelling on the plug and no short.

Dodge

ICBM said:

Dodge said:

The 12/20RT is an odd one.  It's not the polarity thing either, I used a Hotcake, a wah and a tuner all of which had the same effect.  Unfortunately, I don't know it ever worked as it was the first time I tried it!  )

Hmmm… sounds like something is mis-wired inside the amp, since the symptom does sound like a short when the circuit is completed via the signal cable from the pedal to the amp input. It could be that the supply jack is connected backwards, possibly.

The schematic indicates that the supply circuit is grounded (which it doesn't need to be), so if Thomann send it back and it still isn't right, probably best to find a tech who knows what he's doing to either lift the ground connection to that part of the circuit or reverse the jack, depending on which gives the correct labelling on the plug and no short.

It's under warranty, frankly if they can't fix it they can keep it.  I like the amp quite a lot, but I'm not against chopping it in for something else.

Dave_Mc

Dodge said:

I'm not sure Thomann ever return stuff to VHT, I'm fairly sure they get it direct from China.

My Special 6 1 x12 cab had a duff speaker which Thomann return 'no fault found'.  I couldn't be arsed to return it again, so I just dropped in a Jensen which was always my intention!

The 12/20RT is an odd one.  It's not the polarity thing either, I used a Hotcake, a wah and a tuner all of which had the same effect.  Unfortunately, I don't know it ever worked as it was the first time I tried it!  )

Anyway, even with my rudimentary electronics skills I find it highly unlikely a valve and a footswitch jack is likely to fix it.  The sad thing is, it looks like they've got no stock so I'm unlikely to get a replacement. 

I have no idea, that's just what (IIRC) they told me. I think they said they sent it to VHT's repair depot in Europe, but it's possible I misunderstood what they meant or am misremembering ) Either way, I'm guessing mine went to the same place as yours, which makes it look like a half-assed repair is par for the course, unfortunately.

Dodge

Sigh.....

Two VHT amps, two faults, two failed Thomann 'repairs'.

ICBM

This is the unfortunate downside of large international discount dealers. Aside from putting small shops out of business…

Drew_TNBD

They're not VHT amps - just want to point that out. They're Chinese crap using the VHT brand which Steve Fryette sold - I guess to keep the company afloat!!

crunchman

ICBM said:

This is the unfortunate downside of large international discount dealers. Aside from putting small shops out of business…

Agreed.

I bought my Special 6 from them and it has been great so it is not all like this.   Although I don't think anyone in the UK was stocking VHT at the time, at least not anyone local to me.  I would rather have bought locally.  I do when there is the option, and the price is not ridiculously high. 

I'll pay a little more for the convenience of buying locally.  You can try before you buy so you shouldn't get a bad one, and if you do get one that goes wrong after 3 days, you can take it back to the shop, and they handle it all for you.  Depending on the value of the item, it's worth paying 5 to 10% extra.  More than that and you end up being forced to go to the box shifter though.

ICBM

I agree - I'm not totally anti-Thomann or other large box-shifters (I've bought a couple of things from them too), and there's obviously the halfway house of larger UK-based dealers who often run bricks-and-mortar shops too. And I do know some small shops really don't make any attempt to compete on pricing.

But there is definitely a trade-off between ultra low price and backup service in most cases, and it doesn't surprise me that they should be less than great with repairs. I'm even surprised they don't just replace the gear, actually - they must have contingency funds for stuff that gets written off in transit, and repairs are expensive relative to the price of new gear these days. (Which can be a problem for those of us who have to try to make a living doing the repairs too!)

ThePrettyDamned

I always try to use my local.

They're not amazing, but it'll be a sad day if it shuts. I paid 60 quid for a Marshall gv2, which is a lot, lot more than a used price and a fair amount more than a box shifter. But, I did go in store and compare about 5 pedals first - from a boss power stack (which was amazing, but more 80s-90s sounding rather than 70s and vintage) to a second hand t Rex. I was in there for a good hour.

Worth every penny.

The issue comes with stock - they often don't have tons and tons of amps.

Dodge

Well, I can't fault their customer service - they paid for the courier both ways, it seems it's their workshop that is the let down.

Like Crunchman said, at the point of ordering there wasn't a UK dealer at the time so my choices were limited.

Dave_Mc

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

This is the unfortunate downside of large international discount dealers. Aside from putting small shops out of business…

Agreed.

I bought my Special 6 from them and it has been great so it is not all like this.   Although I don't think anyone in the UK was stocking VHT at the time, at least not anyone local to me.  I would rather have bought locally.  I do when there is the option, and the price is not ridiculously high. 

I'll pay a little more for the convenience of buying locally.  You can try before you buy so you shouldn't get a bad one, and if you do get one that goes wrong after 3 days, you can take it back to the shop, and they handle it all for you.  Depending on the value of the item, it's worth paying 5 to 10% extra.  More than that and you end up being forced to go to the box shifter though.

Yeah aside from that my experiences with Thomann have been really good. I'll pay a little extra to go local, too, but it depends on the definition of "local", as well. I mean if I buy from a shop in England or Scotland it's hardly local for me either (considering I'm in NI), and even my "local" shops here are the guts of a 100 mile round trip most of the time.

ICBM said:

(a) I agree - I'm not totally anti-Thomann or other large box-shifters (I've bought a couple of things from them too), and there's obviously the halfway house of larger UK-based dealers who often run bricks-and-mortar shops too. And I do know some small shops really don't make any attempt to compete on pricing.

(b) But there is definitely a trade-off between ultra low price and backup service in most cases, and it doesn't surprise me that they should be less than great with repairs. I'm even surprised they don't just replace the gear, actually - they must have contingency funds for stuff that gets written off in transit, and repairs are expensive relative to the price of new gear these days. (Which can be a problem for those of us who have to try to make a living doing the repairs too!)

(a) Yeah. And local shops aren't always good, too. Some local shops can be annoying (obviously some are great, too).

(b) That's what I wondered. I know thomann does do that with small stuff- they did that with a power supply I had, and I've heard of them doing it with harley benton/joyo pedals too. And while they cost a fair bit less than the VHT amp did, they'd presumably cost an awful lot less to ship around Europe, too. Considering they did a half-assed repair and then had to eventually replace mine anyway, surely it was a false economy? They must just have a black-and-white cut-off point where they don't offer that service any more, that's all I can think of.

jpfamps

Part of the problem with online superstores such as Thomann is that they operate on very tight margins on a lot of gear, especially cheap gear from China, so unless you are a massive operation, it's simply not worth your while stocking it.

Furthermore, as margins are shaved to the bone, "repair" departments are very much a thing of the past.

Thomann turn over around 900 million Euro's a year, so it's impossible to compete with their purchasing power.

crunchman

If we are stuck with the big box shifters, are we better off going with some of the UK shops like Guitar Guitar and GAK?  I refuse to use DV after their "administration" and the way they treated their staff (and suppliers?).

impmann

DV don't really exist any more - its a front for MusicStore Professional, a German chain...

To be fair, a lot of the independents that have gone under (not all, but a large number) were the sort that you visited only because they were your only option at the time - you know the sort, grumpy old git behind the counter who smokes too much, who has a chip on his shoulder about not 'making it', won't give you a decent trade in and everything is *at least* RRP in the shop. Personally speaking, I don't miss these guys... a lot of them were tossers and they went under for a reason. That's a harsh reality.

The reason Andertons, PMT etc  became big is because they offered more and better features/service/stock. Even Thomann started as a regular store...

Thomann do have a huge repair/service centre now - and most companies operate a policy of repair first, replace second. Perhaps that isn't best for the consumer but it negates the "User Error" effect, and saves them getting saddled with large quantities of B stock product on hand. After all, they are a business first and foremost.

Sad to hear of the issues with the VHTs, though - the Youtube demos of them sound pretty good. Hope they get resolved soon for you.

martinw

I'm quite happy with the service and business model of Thomann and similar. Virtually all the small music shops I've ever used over the last 30 odd years have been as impmann said; grumpy, unhelpful, poorly stocked, expensive, elitist, ignorant, arrogant or some combination of these. Poor businesses that shouldn't be mourned. The good ones survive.

The problem is not with Thomann et al, it's with our approach to quality versus price, and it affects everything we buy. We always want the cheapest, and expect to be able to buy  a valve amp (or TV, or MP3 player, or whatever) for such a low price, that a.) the quality is basic at best, not good enough to make repairs cost-effective and b.) there's no margin in the product for the retailer to invest in repair facilities anyway. I think I'm probably repeating what others have said!

Anyway, you can't have your cake......:)

EdGrip

martinw said: Virtually all the small music shops I've ever used over the last 30 odd years have been as impmann said; grumpy, unhelpful, poorly stocked, expensive, elitist, ignorant, arrogant or some combination of these. Poor businesses that shouldn't be mourned. The good ones survive.

This. There are few guitar shops that I've actually felt comfortable in, let alone wanted to help. One of these was the Norfolk Guitar & Bass Centre in Watton, who moved to Norwich and opened a new shop as Supatone - the effort they have gone to to make a really beautiful shop is amazing, and they are still just as pleasant as they were in Watton. The other is Andertons - I was in Guildford one day and then, suddenly.... hang on, is that Andertons? I had to go in. I had been considering a compressor pedal for a while, and they cheerfully set me up in a booth with a Tele and three different comp pedals. I did not enjoy them, and concluded that compressor pedals were not for me. But I couldn't fault the service.

Unfortunately, unless I go mad and decide to buy a brand new [whatever] in the future, it's unlikely I'll end up helping any music shops. Which is a bit of a shame, but there you go.