PMT and Gibson Guitars - Big news and changes

Bridgehouse

dindude said:

Gibson will be reincarnated within the next 2-3 years is my prediction - just look at their core 2017 range, designed for manufacturing convenience (no-one wants a P90 pickup or anything other than a slim-taper neck in 2017?) and price-point rather than what people want, a very steep slippery slope that. 

I can't see their business model working, let alone with their current useless management set up.

Personally I think it would do the industry good to have a major player faulter. There was so much home grown talent at the guitar show this week - I can imagine how great it would be for some of them to do a PRS and get a cheaper range introduced to their specs to compete with the likes of Gibson or Fender.

guitars4you

Bridgehouse said:

dindude said:

Gibson will be reincarnated within the next 2-3 years is my prediction - just look at their core 2017 range, designed for manufacturing convenience (no-one wants a P90 pickup or anything other than a slim-taper neck in 2017?) and price-point rather than what people want, a very steep slippery slope that. 

I can't see their business model working, let alone with their current useless management set up.

Personally I think it would do the industry good to have a major player faulter. There was so much home grown talent at the guitar show this week - I can imagine how great it would be for some of them to do a PRS and get a cheaper range introduced to their specs to compete with the likes of Gibson or Fender.

Some one would instantly buy Gibson if it failed as it stands now - The whole heritage is so strong - who would buy it and do what with it is another story

Ref UK builders - some great boutique work here in the UK with many similar builders in the USA and I dare say in others parts of the world - But to run a small business by building  say 50-200 guitars a year with a one, two or three man team is one thing - To have a sound financial structure in place, with appropriate sales, additional staff, be it admin or luthier etc etc to build 1000 guitars a year, like say Tom Anderson, is a different scenario - In any business, many can be successful at the one,two or three man approach, but fail at 10 or 20 - whole new ball game - Before you know were you are Mr Builder will probably be no longer building as his time now requires him to 'Run The Business' and his team of 10 or 20 - a skill he may or may not have

Bridgehouse

guitars4you said:

Bridgehouse said:

dindude said:

Gibson will be reincarnated within the next 2-3 years is my prediction - just look at their core 2017 range, designed for manufacturing convenience (no-one wants a P90 pickup or anything other than a slim-taper neck in 2017?) and price-point rather than what people want, a very steep slippery slope that. 

I can't see their business model working, let alone with their current useless management set up.

Personally I think it would do the industry good to have a major player faulter. There was so much home grown talent at the guitar show this week - I can imagine how great it would be for some of them to do a PRS and get a cheaper range introduced to their specs to compete with the likes of Gibson or Fender.

Some one would instantly buy Gibson if it failed as it stands now - The whole heritage is so strong - who would buy it and do what with it is another story

Ref UK builders - some great boutique work here in the UK with many similar builders in the USA and I dare say in others parts of the world - But to run a small business by building  say 50-200 guitars a year with a one, two or three man team is one thing - To have a sound financial structure in place, with appropriate sales, additional staff, be it admin or luthier etc etc to build 1000 guitars a year, like say Tom Anderson, is a different scenario - In any business, many can be successful at the one,two or three man approach, but fail at 10 or 20 - whole new ball game - Before you know were you are Mr Builder will probably be no longer building as his time now requires him to 'Run The Business' and his team of 10 or 20 - a skill he may or may not have

All very true.

The big fear would be a Gibson asset strip, maybe a continued custom shop, and a devaluing of the rest of the brand - Chinese buy and move production to China, anyone?

Also, agree with the comments about small builders - but it would only need one or two to find investment, make a good bash of it and be successful to really get the guitar market going... 

Whitecat

Bridgehouse said:

cacophony said:

wonder how thomann 'get on' with gibson?. that would be interesting...

Now if they stopped, the bell really would be tolling..

They did for a while last year. It seemed to be 'brinksmanship' as a few months later Thomann became a dealer again, but they did make good on a threat after the 2015 debacle, if only temporarily. 

guitars4you

Whitecat said:

Bridgehouse said:

cacophony said:

wonder how thomann 'get on' with gibson?. that would be interesting...

Now if they stopped, the bell really would be tolling..

They did for a while last year. It seemed to be 'brinksmanship' as a few months later Thomann became a dealer again, but they did make good on a threat after the 2015 debacle, if only temporarily. 

I was about to ask what is the latest on Thomann and Gibson

frictionfraction

The whole market is extremely precarious and in the U.K. Not much more than a cottage industry or to be more polite a niche industry.  

Music retail sales in the U.K.  covering all instrumentation were about £422m last year - third of guitar centres debt (https://www.ibisworld.co.uk/market-research/musical-instrument-retailers.html)    That's pretty small beer -Manchester United turn over £512m for example 

So the gibson and Fender brands are always likely to be suffering selling to lots of small volatile markets across the world. When you add in gibsons atrocious Mngt the only way out looks like bankruptcy and sell the brand on.   I'm old enough to remember Fender CBS

Bridgehouse

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

Bridgehouse said:

cacophony said:

wonder how thomann 'get on' with gibson?. that would be interesting...

Now if they stopped, the bell really would be tolling..

They did for a while last year. It seemed to be 'brinksmanship' as a few months later Thomann became a dealer again, but they did make good on a threat after the 2015 debacle, if only temporarily. 

I was about to ask what is the latest on Thomann and Gibson

Thomann are big enough to give Gibson's European operation a proper slapping..

richardhomer

If Gibson go under, I predict Terry Morgan with acquire the IP and start building vintage-correct replicas as a cottage industry in the U.K.

Bridgehouse

richardhomer said:

If Gibson go under, I predict Terry Morgan with acquire the IP and start building vintage-correct replicas as a cottage industry in the U.K.

You wouldn't let it lie, would you?

Headphones

Surely the real winner from this will be us.

A look in any of the PMT's shows walls dominated by F & G; all those strange and interesting guitars that the magazines get to test and rave over are never available locally to try.  If the big guys cash doesn't go there, then surely they'll still need to feed a demand for shiny toys - and there are a lot of good makers out there.

So we'll get to try (and likely buy) more of the non F & G instruments.  Roll on the good times.

aljdelaney

Wow. Bold move by Gibson. American corporations at their finest. Let's hope it pays off for them.

Bridgehouse

Headphones said:

Surely the real winner from this will be us.

A look in any of the PMT's shows walls dominated by F & G; all those strange and interesting guitars that the magazines get to test and rave over are never available locally to try.  If the big guys cash doesn't go there, then surely they'll still need to feed a demand for shiny toys - and there are a lot of good makers out there.

So we'll get to try (and likely buy) more of the non F & G instruments.  Roll on the good times.

Got to agree. 

It would be a massive massive shame if F or G went under, disappeared, got stripped or whatever. 

But, the guitar industry is broken. Sometimes it's a circle of same-y stuff that stifles innovation. Brand name should never out perform quality when it comes to something which is essentially a precision tool. We are buying instruments, not high street clothing. 

Sometimes it feels like the big manufacturers are playing to a fashionista, rather than an instrument player. 

And it may have been irony/parody in the recent "recommend me a £10k watch" thread, but it gave me the chills when I realised how close to this the guitar market has become.

The warning signs have been there for a while - just look at how much cash the relic market is worth. It adds nothing to the sound, but it's cool innit?

We are all guilty of perpetuating this in one way or other. 

Nitefly

richardhomer said:

I've always been surprised how many Gibson guitars my local PMT (Salford) had in stock - and how high up the range they went as well. I've seen people trying out Studios and the like - but I've never seen someone playing an Historic in there.

This now leaves Dawson's as the only Gibson dealer in Manchester. How times have changed since I was a kid - you could buy one in pretty much every music shop. Admittedly they may have only had one Gold Top LP Deluxe in stock - but they were widely available.

@richardhomer ;- Richard, I was genuinely shocked when I was in Dawsons last week - the wall of Les Pauls was decimated.  There were perhaps 6 Gibson acoustics.  A handful of SGs.  The ES-275 was still there, that they've had for about 6 months now, and the few ES-335s were all at £2.8k - £3.3k.   And the Epiphone side was looking nearly as bad.

Bridgehouse

frictionfraction said:

Music retail sales in the U.K.  covering all instrumentation were about £422m last year - third of guitar centres debt (https://www.ibisworld.co.uk/market-research/musical-instrument-retailers.html)    That's pretty small beer -Manchester United turn over £512m for example 

Brilliant example of why there's a problem in the guitar industry.

Our whole instrument retail market in the UK is 1/3 of Guitar Centres debt 

I suspect the second-hand market is probably about the same (private/trade & eBay)

Kinda makes the UK look insignificant, doesn't it? 

richardhomer

Nitefly said:
@richardhomer ;- Richard, I was genuinely shocked when I was in Dawsons last week - the wall of Les Pauls was decimated.  There were perhaps 6 Gibson acoustics.  A handful of SGs.  The ES-275 was still there, that they've had for about 6 months now, and the few ES-335s were all at £2.8k - £3.3k.   And the Epiphone side was looking nearly as bad.

I was last in there in early January and it was much the same story. To be fair, I think that was possibly only the second time I've been in since it opened - so I didn't really have any expectations.

But if it is to be the city's only Gibson dealer - I agree it's pretty poor.

impmann

A few things -

GC's debt and financial issues have been ongoing for decades. They have been closer to 'the brink' previously. Plus the chances of them failing totally are slight at best due to the interlinked nature of the US music scene. Just because S&T decide not to stock Gibson, don't assume the deck of cards will follow for GC - they are a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the US market.

S&T have done this before with other brands where they haven't been able to screw the manufacturer for a particular deal - and I mean screw. They probably saw that Hans T did similar and thought they could get a better deal, then restock later as Thomann did once they offloaded their current stock (remember that Gibson operate a minimum stocking requirement - this could just be them trying to clear stocks).

The doom and gloom merchants are very quick to jump to conclusions and to predict the downfall of the great and good. Remember that there will be good people who will lose their income as a result of such things - don't be so quick to celebrate these things.

Another thing not considered here - could it be that PMT are struggling and not able to maintain their minimum stock requirements for Gibson? 

Finally - there are PLENTY of other places to buy a Gibson or any other brand than PMT, so let's not panic, eh? 

darthed1981

Bridgehouse said:

And it may have been irony/parody in the recent "recommend me a £10k watch" thread, but it gave me the chills when I realised how close to this the guitar market has become.

The warning signs have been there for a while - just look at how much cash the relic market is worth. It adds nothing to the sound, but it's cool innit?

We are all guilty of perpetuating this in one way or other. 

Oh yes a 1000 times yes.  I think even Chappers and The Captain come close to admitting sometimes that mutli-thousand pound instruments are for the person who makes money from music and the very well heeled indeed, the beginner, intermediate or hobby guitarist can find most if not all they will ever need with change from £500, or most can.

Has anyone got any information on how PMT as a business is currently fairing?  It is going to be an extremely challenging year for the guitar business in the UK, and as my local shop is a PMT I'd hate to see them go under.

guitars4you

darthed1981 said:

Bridgehouse said:

And it may have been irony/parody in the recent "recommend me a £10k watch" thread, but it gave me the chills when I realised how close to this the guitar market has become.

The warning signs have been there for a while - just look at how much cash the relic market is worth. It adds nothing to the sound, but it's cool innit?

We are all guilty of perpetuating this in one way or other. 

Oh yes a 1000 times yes.  I think even Chappers and The Captain come close to admitting sometimes that mutli-thousand pound instruments are for the person who makes money from music and the very well heeled indeed, the beginner, intermediate or hobby guitarist can find most if not all they will ever need with change from £500, or most can.

Has anyone got any information on how PMT as a business is currently fairing?  It is going to be an extremely challenging year for the guitar business in the UK, and as my local shop is a PMT I'd hate to see them go under.

No way does this decision about no longer stocking Gibson Guitars in the future have reflect their current trading position - From all accounts they are doing very nicely and have expanded a couple of times over the last 12 months - new store in Oxford on its way

olafgarten

guitars4you said:

darthed1981 said:

Bridgehouse said:

And it may have been irony/parody in the recent "recommend me a £10k watch" thread, but it gave me the chills when I realised how close to this the guitar market has become.

The warning signs have been there for a while - just look at how much cash the relic market is worth. It adds nothing to the sound, but it's cool innit?

We are all guilty of perpetuating this in one way or other. 

Oh yes a 1000 times yes.  I think even Chappers and The Captain come close to admitting sometimes that mutli-thousand pound instruments are for the person who makes money from music and the very well heeled indeed, the beginner, intermediate or hobby guitarist can find most if not all they will ever need with change from £500, or most can.

Has anyone got any information on how PMT as a business is currently fairing?  It is going to be an extremely challenging year for the guitar business in the UK, and as my local shop is a PMT I'd hate to see them go under.

No way does this decision about no longer stocking Gibson Guitars in the future have reflect their current trading position - From all accounts they are doing very nicely and have expanded a couple of times over the last 12 months - new store in Oxford on its way

Yes, I think the main problem is that Gibson are trying to force shops to buy what they don't want. I know for a fact that another large guitar store are having trouble with Gibson as well. 

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

darthed1981

olafgarten said:

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

Out of curiousity, what is it that the shops don't want that Gibson are trying to push?

I'm guessing it is the insanely-expensive custom shop models...?