Religion in School

TheBlueWolf · October 2016

Speak to the school calmly about it. There's a chance they were discussing God as part of a wider lesson on religion or faith. I'd let him know your views on the subject too so he has the most balanced and informed view possible.

Anyway I'm out.

english_bob · October 2016

fields5069 said:

english_bob said:

professorben said:

english_bob said:

tampadragon said:

If they have to teach it, then it should be taught in an un-biased way by a teacher who has no beliefs and presented as facts about the religion in full.

So should the teacher be an atheist, or an agnostic? Or someone who doesn't actually give a shit about the topic they're teaching? Why can't a religious believer be unbiased? Wouldn't a confirmed atheist be just as biased?

Facts about the religion in full? How many hours a week do you think we should devote to this? I'm sure they could at least do a bit of myth-busting, like a slightly fuller social/religious/historical context for the Crusades, or about the diversity of attitudes to women within the major world religions.

FWIW, I think children should be taught about religion in something like this way. Given that something like 84% of the world have some sort of religious belief, ignorance of all of them seems like a bad idea.

I agree a full coverage of all faiths is really important, but it's when the lines between fact and faith are blurred is the issue, I have no issue with people being religious, but have a real problem when people foist their beliefs on others, especially to young impressionable minds and even more do when coming from scene in a trusted educational position.
i think the OP was expressing concern that his child is being told that God created the world in seven days, or that the sky is blue because God wants to be etc.
its an easy get out for a lazy teacher, or for a Teacher with an agenda to influence young minds.

Isn't it "foisting your beliefs on others" to tell your kids that God doesn't exist? If there's one educational position a child will trust more than a teacher, it's a parent. People pass on all sorts of beliefs to their kids all the time.

And FWIW, the OP didn't say that his child had been taught anything other than that "God made everything"- nothing about seven-day creation or the sky being blue because God wants it to be. That's your interpretation of what the statement means, and it's only one of a whole range of views.

I'm not asking the teacher to do that, I'm asking the teacher to point out that there is no proof. And before you counter, no I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist. :-)

Neither side of the debate can prove their point, but that's exactly my point. You can't object to one person presenting your child with an unproven view of the world that you don't agree with, but not object to an equally unproven view that you do happen to share. That's not "critical thinking" or "skepticism", or providing a "balanced view".

Of course, "God exists" and "God does not exist" are only the extreme views in a spectrum:

Image result for dawkins scale

All a little over a 5 year old's head of course.

english_bob · October 2016

fields5069 said:

But I don't think it's right or proper that a teacher should have such a serious and harmful bias, which let's face it I don't think you could say of Gary Lineker. So yes, just as the school shouldn't employ certain convicted criminals, so they also shouldn't employ a religious person who can't keep their bias to themselves.

What makes religious faith a "serious and harmful bias"?

vasselmeyer · October 2016

english_bob said:

fields5069 said:

But I don't think it's right or proper that a teacher should have such a serious and harmful bias, which let's face it I don't think you could say of Gary Lineker. So yes, just as the school shouldn't employ certain convicted criminals, so they also shouldn't employ a religious person who can't keep their bias to themselves.

What makes religious faith a "serious and harmful bias"?

The "fact" that an invisible sky fairy watches over us and will allow us to absolve ourselves of responsibility as in "It's God's will". All Abrahamic religions do this, some flavours and denominations more than others. Surely it's better to teach individual responsibility, logical thinking and ethics not tinged by superstition.

Rocker · October 2016

It is important that children are taught facts in school. It is also important that children are informed that there are questions that cannot be answered. Questions like 'what happens us when we die'. Religion of one sort or another goes back a very long time. I believe that children should be taught the principles of the strongest religion in their country. Christianity in the case of UK residents. Later other religions can be brought in to show that some people think differently. Ditto with agnostics etc. Ultimately it is the parents responsibility what their child learns and/or believes in. Many parents have abdicated their responsibilities in the issue of religious education and then blame the school and teachers for doing their job as they deem necessary.

Nikko · October 2016

I believe the children are our future...

exocet · October 2016

I put my kids "straight" on religion from a very early age. However I also instilled in them the need to respect others points of view / religious beliefs. Throughout their school years we have been able to laugh at the ridiculous assertions of some of the RE teachers. My daughter took RE for GCSE and passed with a very good grade, my son has sidestepped the subject altogether.

Snap · October 2016

telling kids there is a god is not part of the national curriculum. Telling kids that different faiths exist and what they choose to believe, is. If the facts remain that your school has been doing the former above, I would complain. This sort of indoctrination really winds me up.

faith schools my arse, they should all be banned.

lloyd · October 2016

english_bob said:

fields5069 said:

english_bob said:

professorben said:

english_bob said:

tampadragon said:

If they have to teach it, then it should be taught in an un-biased way by a teacher who has no beliefs and presented as facts about the religion in full.

So should the teacher be an atheist, or an agnostic? Or someone who doesn't actually give a shit about the topic they're teaching? Why can't a religious believer be unbiased? Wouldn't a confirmed atheist be just as biased?

Facts about the religion in full? How many hours a week do you think we should devote to this? I'm sure they could at least do a bit of myth-busting, like a slightly fuller social/religious/historical context for the Crusades, or about the diversity of attitudes to women within the major world religions.

FWIW, I think children should be taught about religion in something like this way. Given that something like 84% of the world have some sort of religious belief, ignorance of all of them seems like a bad idea.

I agree a full coverage of all faiths is really important, but it's when the lines between fact and faith are blurred is the issue, I have no issue with people being religious, but have a real problem when people foist their beliefs on others, especially to young impressionable minds and even more do when coming from scene in a trusted educational position.
i think the OP was expressing concern that his child is being told that God created the world in seven days, or that the sky is blue because God wants to be etc.
its an easy get out for a lazy teacher, or for a Teacher with an agenda to influence young minds.

Isn't it "foisting your beliefs on others" to tell your kids that God doesn't exist? If there's one educational position a child will trust more than a teacher, it's a parent. People pass on all sorts of beliefs to their kids all the time.

And FWIW, the OP didn't say that his child had been taught anything other than that "God made everything"- nothing about seven-day creation or the sky being blue because God wants it to be. That's your interpretation of what the statement means, and it's only one of a whole range of views.

I'm not asking the teacher to do that, I'm asking the teacher to point out that there is no proof. And before you counter, no I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist. :-)

Neither side of the debate can prove their point, but that's exactly my point. You can't object to one person presenting your child with an unproven view of the world that you don't agree with, but not object to an equally unproven view that you do happen to share. That's not "critical thinking" or "skepticism", or providing a "balanced view".

Of course, "God exists" and "God does not exist" are only the extreme views in a spectrum:

All a little over a 5 year old's head of course.

Jesus Christ you're an idiot.

The assertion that god doesn't exist is not a belief, it's an scientific assumption.

The assertion that god does exist is a belief.

Telling your kid the first one isn't asserting your beliefs on the kid.

Telling our kid the second is.

fields5069 · October 2016

vasselmeyer said:

english_bob said:

fields5069 said:

But I don't think it's right or proper that a teacher should have such a serious and harmful bias, which let's face it I don't think you could say of Gary Lineker. So yes, just as the school shouldn't employ certain convicted criminals, so they also shouldn't employ a religious person who can't keep their bias to themselves.

What makes religious faith a "serious and harmful bias"?

That fact that an invisible sky fairy watches over us and will allow us to absolve ourselves of responsibility as in "It's God's will". All Abrahamic religions do this, some flavours and denominations more than others. Surely it's better to teach individual responsibility, logical thinking and ethics not tinged by superstition.

I was sort of going to write that, although i probably wouldn't have put it quite so well. Also the notion that I can not be sin-free without religion, that I can not exercise good moral judgement without religion, that I can not feel compelled to help my fellow man without religion. These are all basic human traits, in some cases contradicted by certain religions and/or flawed interpretations of religious texts.

DLM · October 2016

Reverend said:

Nikko said:

DLM said:

Reverend said:

Toast is god.

http://underthetapestry.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/JesusOnToast2.jpg
Bears a striking resemblance to Ola Englund, too....

And Tony Iommi...

Ah.. the complex metaphysics of the holy trinity. Toast, Marmite and Iommi.

@Reverend Whilst I feel our beliefs are strongly aligned, I ask that the following images be considered:

http://www.nationalrockreview.com/wp-content/gallery/olaenglund-sweetwatersound-fortwayne_in-20140821-chuckmarshall/OlaEnglund-SweetWaterSound-FortWayne_IN-20140821-ChuckMarshall-006.jpg

= Face on the toast

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2406391308/xsa86gvhchei9ek1z99o.jpeg

≠ Face on the toast

DrJazzTap · October 2016

Who went ahead and got religion into the mix?

I went to a non religious primary school in the 80s.
Well apart from the head teacher blasting away on an old upright piano. And making us sing weird songs about being cold, hungry and naked.....
Tbf we did go on a school trip to a local Hindu temple. As a youngster i thought that was the coolest thing ever. Our western deity was basically Noel Edmonds but they have a man with an elephant's head.

My parents aren't religious at all. But if I wanted to lean that way, so long as I didn't try and convert anyone else they wouldn't mind.

To the op its really up to you how you want to handle things with the school. I would certainly say something to them.

Reverend · October 2016

DLM said:

Reverend said:

Nikko said:

DLM said:

Reverend said:

Toast is god.

http://underthetapestry.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/JesusOnToast2.jpg
Bears a striking resemblance to Ola Englund, too....

And Tony Iommi...

Ah.. the complex metaphysics of the holy trinity. Toast, Marmite and Iommi.

@Reverend Whilst I feel our beliefs are strongly aligned, I ask that the following images be considered:
http://www.nationalrockreview.com/wp-content/gallery/olaenglund-sweetwatersound-fortwayne_in-20140821-chuckmarshall/OlaEnglund-SweetWaterSound-FortWayne_IN-20140821-ChuckMarshall-006.jpg
= Face on the toast
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2406391308/xsa86gvhchei9ek1z99o.jpeg
≠ Face on the toast

Well duh...

that's clearly a young Lemmy on the toast.

professorben · October 2016

english_bob said:

professorben said:

english_bob said:

tampadragon said:

If they have to teach it, then it should be taught in an un-biased way by a teacher who has no beliefs and presented as facts about the religion in full.

So should the teacher be an atheist, or an agnostic? Or someone who doesn't actually give a shit about the topic they're teaching? Why can't a religious believer be unbiased? Wouldn't a confirmed atheist be just as biased?

Facts about the religion in full? How many hours a week do you think we should devote to this? I'm sure they could at least do a bit of myth-busting, like a slightly fuller social/religious/historical context for the Crusades, or about the diversity of attitudes to women within the major world religions.

FWIW, I think children should be taught about religion in something like this way. Given that something like 84% of the world have some sort of religious belief, ignorance of all of them seems like a bad idea.

I agree a full coverage of all faiths is really important, but it's when the lines between fact and faith are blurred is the issue, I have no issue with people being religious, but have a real problem when people foist their beliefs on others, especially to young impressionable minds and even more do when coming from scene in a trusted educational position.
i think the OP was expressing concern that his child is being told that God created the world in seven days, or that the sky is blue because God wants to be etc.
its an easy get out for a lazy teacher, or for a Teacher with an agenda to influence young minds.

Isn't it "foisting your beliefs on others" to tell your kids that God doesn't exist? If there's one educational position a child will trust more than a teacher, it's a parent. People pass on all sorts of beliefs to their kids all the time.

And FWIW, the OP didn't say that his child had been taught anything other than that "God made everything"- nothing about seven-day creation or the sky being blue because God wants it to be. That's your interpretation of what the statement means, and it's only one of a whole range of views.

From your posts, I'm assuming ( rightly or wrongly) that you are yourself religious, that's cool, whatever you like man., I myself ( I'm sure you have guessed) am anti-religion, by that I mean not that I am an atheist, I actively disapprove of organised religion as a concept, I believe that is causes more problems than it solves.

The OP stated that his child had been making statements along the lines of "God made everything" this is worrying to me, because we know for a fact, that a pretty much everything in the known universe is in fact made by other processes than a Devine being, a teacher ( as much as a parent) has a duty to educate with the best information available at that time, and the existence of a deity relies on the emotional willingness of the individual to believe, it's not like explaining photosynthesis, or evaporation, those are provable, demonstrable facts, and that is what a child should be learning.

I do have a problem with religion, and thusly religious people,my issue is the influence that religion has on the world, last Sunday I ran out of wall fixings for a diy project, I was unable to buy new ones because my local b and q was closed, the reason? Sunday trading laws, laws controlling when shops of a certain size can be open on a Sunday, why Sunday? It's a supposedly religious day, not religious to me, I don't give a stuff about whose invisible friend did or didn't shag a swan or whatever, but it impacts on my life.
now imagine the other end of the scale, where someone's son/daughter/partner has been killed by an act of terror, somebody's belief drove them to consider it their duty to blow themselves up, or drive a truck through a crowd, then this is celebrated by authorities within that religion.

is that the kind of thing you want to push a child towards?
Why would you want an innocent child to associated with those types of people?

Modulus_Amps · October 2016

is that god, or God, which god ...... Some Christians don't realize they use Christian jargon all the time, because it is normal in their circles.

either that or the school is trying to brain wash your child, and next he will be loyally giving his teachers a 10% tithe out of his pocket money.... just joking. that would never happen.

hywelg · October 2016

Ban all religion in schools. All of it. Every school. We don't allow maths teachers to teach 2+2=5 so we shouldn't allow other irrational beliefs to be perpetuated.

If people want to indoctrinate their kids, they should do.it themselves or get their church/synagogue/mosque to do it on their behalf.

Maybe eventually we will kill it off.

fields5069 · October 2016

Hope springs eternal!

CabbageCat · October 2016

lloyd said:

The assertion that god doesn't exist is not a belief, it's an scientific assumption.

The assertion that god does exist is a belief.

Telling your kid the first one isn't asserting your beliefs on the kid.

Telling our kid the second is.

Isn't a belief really just a position based on an assumption. Christians say God exists because they assume it is the case without proof. Full-on atheists say God does not exist because they assume it is the case without proof (obviously...since there can't be practical proof of non-existence).

Telling a kid that there is no God (or Santa Claus, or unicorns) is just as logically wrong as telling a kid that there is a God.

From what I have read and what I have observed I certainly think that there is a realistic chance that there is a God of some description. I certainly would never tell someone that there is no God as a matter of fact (not saying that you are).

fields5069 · October 2016

CabbageCat said:

lloyd said:

The assertion that god doesn't exist is not a belief, it's an scientific assumption.

The assertion that god does exist is a belief.

Telling your kid the first one isn't asserting your beliefs on the kid.

Telling our kid the second is.

Isn't a belief really just a position based on an assumption. Christians say God exists because they assume it is the case without proof. Full-on atheists say God does not exist because they assume it is the case without proof (obviously...since there can't be practical proof of non-existence).
Telling a kid that there is no God (or Santa Claus, or unicorns) is just as logically wrong as telling a kid that there is a God.
From what I have read and what I have observed I certainly think that there is a realistic chance that there is a God of some description. I certainly would never tell someone that there is no God as a matter of fact (not saying that you are).

No, sorry. The "belief" that something doesn't exist isn't a belief. That was the status quo for many thousands of years, there was no question. Then religion was invented and the burden of proof lies with the religious.

lloyd · October 2016

CabbageCat said:

lloyd said:

The assertion that god doesn't exist is not a belief, it's an scientific assumption.

The assertion that god does exist is a belief.

Telling your kid the first one isn't asserting your beliefs on the kid.

Telling our kid the second is.

Isn't a belief really just a position based on an assumption. Christians say God exists because they assume it is the case without proof. Full-on atheists say God does not exist because they assume it is the case without proof (obviously...since there can't be practical proof of non-existence).
Telling a kid that there is no God (or Santa Claus, or unicorns) is just as logically wrong as telling a kid that there is a God.
From what I have read and what I have observed I certainly think that there is a realistic chance that there is a God of some description. I certainly would never tell someone that there is no God as a matter of fact (not saying that you are).

Fucking hell, Mr Logic from the Viz enters another debate.

If you want break it down to a micro-level then fine, but no, in the real world failing to recognize an abstract concept/idea/incident through an absence of evidence does not equal "a belief" it's an absence of belief in something that when we apply the scientific method to we have to accept that it is overwhelmingly probable that it does not exist-to the point that we have to say it does not (with an * next to it).

We can't be certain that there isn't a giant invisible man ensuring the world keeps spinning by whacking it with his 8 mile long cock can we? But we don't say that the belief of that is just as valid as somebody's assertion that they can fairly happily state that there isn't one and point out all the facts we do know about why the earth spins.

The same goes for god-everything in the old testament has been killed by facts disproving it, now it's all allegories and metaphor, the same is slowly happening with the new testament.

So no, they're weighted differently apart from in your anal logic world.

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