Upgrading from a Licensed Floyd Rose bridge

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

I have a Washburn MG-42, the subject of another thread. It has a Washburn 600S Licensed Floyd Rose trem, made by Takeuchi.

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/116146/0/#Form_Comment

I was thinking of selling, but I've had a go at giving it a proper set up with the help of very useful ESP Youtube video. Straightened the neck, adjusted the springs to make trem level with body and lowered the bridge to as far as it will go. Huge improvement, now plays very well with low action.

However, the two Phillips mounting screws on either side of the bridge are made of cheese and are stripping. Also I'm convinced that it is a terrible bridge system as it needs constant tweaking to stay in tune. This made me think about the suggestion @Garthy made to upgrade the bridge and that this could be my first modding project

How straightforward would it be and what FR trems would fit? The distance between the two mounting screw holes is 74mm. The Gotoh GE1996T and Original Floyd Rose are also 74mm, so should fit. I need to check it the guitar has mounting inserts or whether they are screwed straight into the wood.

Would I need to take out and replace any existing inserts? I think that replacing the mounting studs, and fitting new ones into the existing holes could be where potential problems arise.

Also, would upgrading the locking nut result in an improved performance?

Sorry a bit of a ramble, but before I start taking it apart, any advice would be appreciated.

GluedtoMusic · January 2018

MagicPigDetective said:

Would I need to take out and replace any existing inserts? I think that replacing the mounting studs, and fitting new ones into the existing holes could be where potential problems arise.

You need to check the thread size on the inserts (if they are inserts not wood screws), the Floyd Rose OFR and Gotoh GE1996T have different size threads, also neither the Gotoh or FR come with wood screws, only inserts, you can buy FR wood screws separately if it turns out they are screws.

randella · January 2018

They're inserts on these, I seem to remember. A friend had one which had a split in the wood along the centres of the inserts and the back of the trem rout, which wrote off the guitar. Christ knows what he'd done to it. Me dad had a go at fixing it but no joy, there's not much meat for the inserts to sit in!

Shame, it had a nice neck. Be interested to see this one fettled.

randella · January 2018

MagicPigDetective said:

Also, would upgrading the locking nut result in an improved performance?

My tuppence worth - if it doesn't move and it holds the strings locked, leave it. I can't see any benefit in tinkering if it works OK.

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

Thanks @GluedtoMusic ; and @randella

Will leave the nut. My immediate concern is to get the screws out before they are too stripped to do so. The use of poor quality soft metal for the phillips headed screws instead of an allen key type socket seems like a poor money saving choice by the manufacturer.

I can see that there is not much wood between the screws/insert and the trem rout, so if I needed to drop in bigger inserts the holes would need to be screwed larger. A job for someone else who knows what they are doing, I think. If I could find screws/studs that fit into the current inserts, it would to for now.

I am somewhat confused. Does each type of FR type trem have to be matched with the stud/insert type/size that they are supplied with, or can you mix them up? If I could find a new stud that fits the existing inserts, or a new stud and insert that fits in the hole, would they work with a OFR or Gotoh, even if they are smaller than the ones that are supplied with them? It would save needing to drill a hole.

Will have a 'fettle' as soon as I get a change too and take measurements.

randella · January 2018

I would have thought that if you could find a screw with the same thread as the inserts in the guitar then you'd be all set.

The 'Original' Floyd Rose (i.e. the costly Floyd-branded ones made by Schaller) use a type of insert which, when looked at from the side, has a 'V' formed in which the knide-edge on the bridge can locate. I think your guitar's bridge and post setup is the same? Like these:

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah218/mrjaymenon/Gotoh%20Floyd%20Locking%20Stud_zpsir5fzlmo.jpg

If so I wouldn't worry too much about the exact radius of the top of the posts (or the 'V'), but the thread is important - they must screw into the inserts securely but without binding (which will happen if the threads are mismatched).

Are the posts damaged where the bridge's knife edges rest? If not you may be OK. Check it isn't wear on the bridge causing your tuning problems, some of those old licenced Floyds weren't made from the best metals known to man (I mean no offence here!)

Be very careful about removing the inserts, if it comes to that. The aforementioned damage to by buddy's guitar rendered it fit for the bin, there really isn't a lot of wood there.

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

I’ve removed the bridge and screws and found a problem. The wood along back of the lower insert has cracked and it’s exposed within the trem cavity. Oh shit. The insert seems secure in place but is slightly off centre due to movement below I suppose.

The screws have the V, are 5mm wide and the thread is 20mm long. They and the ‘blade’ bits of the trem seem in ok condition.

Is this saveable?

https://imgur.com/gallery/LIbxc

https://imgur.com/gallery/fKHmh

https://imgur.com/gallery/3LoO6

https://imgur.com/gallery/XNXw1

randella · January 2018

That'll be what's causing your tuning niggles, I guess. The bridge and posts seem in reasonable nick - one of my 'Floyd' guitars has a Kahler that manages to stay in tune despite posts that are much more worn than yours.

That's exactly the damage my friend's guitar had, although his was much worse. I'm not sure what you'd do to save that though, as I think it amounts to the same thing. There's a tremendous amount of pressure exerted, from the string tension, on that bottom edge of the insert that is poking through.

You'd be as well to take advice from the builders who lurk around here. The nuclear option is to rout away the wood at the leading edge of the bridge and replace it with another block of comparable hardwood (basswood, from memory). I've done this to block a pickup rout and it does work, but that was a simple shape.

On your guitar it's not ideal to say the least as it's a translucent finish - it'd stick out like a sore thumb under anything other than a solid colour. You'd have to recut the trem rout (and possibly the control cavity) to match, and drill for the inserts which itself isn't a trivial task. Then refinish. At some point down the line you'd be able to see where you made the repair as the finish will sink over the join lines.

My dad considered all of this when repairing my friend's, but didn't want to go full-on with a guitar that wasn't his. In the end he just experimented by gluing in a block of hardwood over the damage with marine epoxy just to see what sort of stresses he was dealing with - the strings didn't even get up to pitch before the repair failed so he called it a day.

See what the other folk have to say. For my money it's not going to be a simple repair - sorry fella. Stupid bloody bit of design from Washburn, as it's otherwise a decent instrument.

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

Damn, but thanks for the honest assessment. I can’t help thinking that I’ve done the damage myself this week by over tightening the screw or when I took the bridge off tonight. Shows that a little knowledge can be dangerous.

I’ll be gutted if its a gonner, I’ve been through a lot with it over the last 25 years and had finally got it set up right and playing like a dream. I knew nothing about set ups etc when I was a young ‘un.

randella · January 2018

I can guarantee you’ve not done the damage yourself. If you managed to do that on your own by overtightening a screw I’d be impressed. Look at the spare wood left to absorb however many foot-pounds of tension from a set of 9’s... it wasn’t your fault.

I’m sorry if I gave you a downer!

I’m going to take a liberty and tag in a few people whose wisdom I’ve been privy to, and whose threads I’ve admired.

Hopefully one of them will at least tell you I’ve been talking bobbins...

@wezv @TTony @Andyjr1515 ;;;

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

randella said:

I can guarantee you’ve not done the damage yourself. If you managed to do that on your own by overtightening a screw I’d be impressed. Look at the spare wood left to absorb however many foot-pounds of tension from a set of 9’s... it wasn’t your fault.

I’m sorry if I gave you a downer!

I’m going to take a liberty and tag in a few people whose wisdom I’ve been privy to, and whose threads I’ve admired.

Hopefully one of them will at least tell you I’ve been talking bobbins...

@wezv @TTony @Andyjr1515 ;;;;;

No worries @randella ;;; . I was quiet stressed about this last night but have cooled this morning; it's not a valuable guitar, but I seem to be more attached to it than I realised! If it can be fixed I would like to use it as an upgrade project. I have certainly learnt a lot about FR type trems this week.

I may take it to a repair guy next week; a new shop has opended in Dolgellau, Remade Guitars and the owner Robin does repairs and set ups.

If anyone has more advice, good or bad news, it would be most welcome

Andyjr1515 · January 2018

Hi

Just picked this thread up.

It's definitely fixable (and won't be anything you've done to it

) but probably easier to get a tech to do it if, as you say, you have one close at hand. If it turns out to be too pricey, we can probably guide you through to getting it at least fit for purpose as long as you've got some basic skills and tools.

Andy

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

Good news @Andyjr1515 I’ll see what the tech thinks next week. Fit for purpose will do, I’m willing to comprimise aesthetics.

Jaycee · January 2018

From the pics it looks as if the studs are not vertical i.e angled toward the cavity. I have never worked on an Floyd but assume the studs should be plumb. Would plugging and re drilling sort the problem, I think someone mentioned it earlier?

Maynehead · January 2018

Looks like a fault from when the Floyd was installed to me.

The bottom of the insert should never have been so close to the edge of the wood (look how far it is to the edge at the top!), but because the hole was drilled at an angle, the problem has manifested itself.

I would say plugging and redrilling (straight this time) should be an easy and viable solution.

xGizmo · January 2018

Id look at Plugging with some harder hardwood plugs/epoxy and re-drilling for replacement mount studs but ones that are set on a support bar (you might need to channel route to make the plate sit flush with the top)

Here's a pic of one upside down that i just removed from my HM strat that someone else had retro fitted for a OFR,had to pop it out because it was fowling the base of spyder trem and pushing up the action by 2-3 mm

Image: http://i67.tinypic.com/105zneq.jpg

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

Thanks all, I'm taking it to a tech tomorrow for a look.

If it can be plugged/filled, I suppose will then need to think about what to drill back in (rather than putting back the stock one I would like to fit an upgraded trem e.g. Gotoh 1996t) . If I keep the current inserts I will need to find a 5mm screw/stud to replace the stripped ones. I can only find 8mm studs with an 11mm insert. If drilling a hole for a larger 11mm insert, it would not leave much wood on both sides.

MagicPigDetective · January 2018

Thankfully the guitar tech was most helpful, has seen this many times before and says he can fix it and will look into what is possible for a trem upgrade. I'll let you know the outcome

MagicPigDetective · February 2018

I've been quoted £275: this includes a new Gotoh GE1996T, the repair, set up and fitting the new bridge; does this sound reasonable? Way more than the guitar will ever be worth, but I've decided to go ahead with it as I want to bring this guitar to it’s full potential

FX_Munkee · February 2018

Considering the Gotoh floyd is ~£140 on it's own, that's not too bad.
Personally I'd have used a Floyd Rose special and upgraded the block. I know people insist it's not as good as an OFR but I have both and the differences are extremely minimal IMHO.

MagicPigDetective · February 2018

Got the guitar back repaired with the Gotoh 1996t installed. He managed to plug and strengthen the wood with a kind of Brazilian hardwood and installed the bigger inserts. It’s a hell of an improvement. For starters the arm doesn’t swing about making a racket. It stays in tune. Very smooth action up and down with the trem, The brass block might have improved the tone or sustain as it’s sounding great through the Katana. All the strings kept going flat initially; I tightened the two spring claw screws a smidgen which appears to have sorted this. It’s got two springs installed, seems ok without needing a third.

https://i.imgur.com/Umak4HK.jpg

Next upgrade will be the pickups. Pretty clueless about changing pickups so may be back for more advice.

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Upgrading from a Licensed Floyd Rose bridge

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