Lazy string bending question

TADodger · June 2020

I should work this out for myself, but....... my recently acquired Jaguar is fitted with 9's from the shop and it seems to take a large amount of bend to hit a full step. If I fit larger strings (10's or 11's which will increase the string tension?) will the bend required then be less to achieve the same same full step?

If my thinking is correct, what string size is considered optimum for achieving a full step bend (or more) without too much finger pressure?

The Jag is 9.5 radius and tall narrow frets.

ICBM · June 2020

Jaguars need at least 11s to play properly.

With 9s you’ll have to bend the string halfway to the next county before you’ll get a full tone up...

stratman3142 · June 2020

ICBM said:

Jaguars need at least 11s to play properly.

With 9s you’ll have to bend the string halfway to the next county before you’ll get a full tone up...

Is that because of the spring tension on the vibrato bar or a shorter scale length?

Just curious.

ToneControl · June 2020

with a shorter scale length, you don't need to tighten up the normal gauge strings as much, so they would be slacker

AFAIK slacker strings need more deflection to bend a note up, which is why classical guitars don't sound out of tune with a high action

Funkfingers · June 2020

ICBM said:

Jaguars need at least 11s to play properly.

I slum it on elevens and a 7.25” fingerboard radius.

stratman3142 said:

ICBM said:

Jaguars need at least 11s to play properly.

Is that because of the spring tension on the vibrato bar or a shorter scale length?

The shorter scale.

The vibrato spring tension works rather like a Bigsby. Thus, it ought to be possible to change to a stiffer spring.

The increased tension of heavier gauge strings help to prevent the bridge shifting and ruining the intonation.

Musicwolf · June 2020

ToneControl said:

with a shorter scale length, you don't need to tighten up the normal gauge strings as much, so they would be slacker

AFAIK slacker strings need more deflection to bend a note up, which is why classical guitars don't sound out of tune with a high action

To put some maths behind that

The frequency (pitch) of a vibrating string can be expressed using the formula;

frequency = SQRT ( Tension / Mass per unit length) / String Length

For a given frequency (note) if you keep the Mass per unit length (i.e. string gauge) fixed then for a shorter Length (scale length) you must reduce the Tension. Lower Tension = easier to bend.

Alternatively you can keep T fixed and increase M by using a heavier (thicker) string. This is the reason why some players fit heavier gauge strings to a Gibson (24.75” scale) vs a Fender (25.5” scale) so that they ‘feel’ the same.

When you bend a string then Hooke’s law comes into play. Force = k x where k is a constant (for the particular string) and x is the displacement (bend). The maths gets complicated because you are not stretching the string in a linear fashion, you are bending it sideways (so now you have to build some geometry into the equation). Without working through the maths (‘cos it is a. very early, b. I’ve only had two espressos and I need a third and c. it’s a long time since I did this sort of maths) the net result should be that you need to bend the string ever so slightly less on a shorter scale guitar to achieve the same increase in pitch (I stand to be corrected). In practical terms it is not about distance, it’s about force and bending feels easier (requires less force) on a short scale guitar or with thinner strings or with drop tuning.

In practice other aspects of the guitars construction and set up will alter the 'feel' so sometimes swapping between guitars may not make comparisons quite so straight forward (i.e. you may find one particular neck shape easier to bend than another. Not because the force required to bend is different but because your fingers are at a better angle to impart that force).

ICBM · June 2020

stratman3142 said:

Is that because of the spring tension on the vibrato bar or a shorter scale length?

It’s a combination of the shorter scale and the extra string length behind the bridge. The vibrato doesn’t make much difference - in fact with 9s on, the spring may not move at all because it could be tight against the stop. That’s the other reason you need heavy strings on them - old US ones have a strong spring which doesn’t really compress with anything lighter than 11s or even 12s.

TADodger · June 2020

Thanks all. Being a bit of a light player, are 11’s still optimum, or would 10’s be a better choice for me?

@Musicwolf - Thanks for the science behind this but in the bending part you seem to be saying that a short scale should = less bend to achieve any particular pitch change which seems opposite to practice, or, is this showing that for any increase in string size the bend will be slightly less?

stickyfiddle · June 2020

ICBM said:

stratman3142 said:

Is that because of the spring tension on the vibrato bar or a shorter scale length?

It’s a combination of the shorter scale and the extra string length behind the bridge. The vibrato doesn’t make much difference - in fact with 9s on, the spring may not move at all because it could be tight against the stop. That’s the other reason you need heavy strings on them - old US ones have a strong spring which doesn’t really compress with anything lighter than 11s or even 12s.

I came to say this. It’s the combination that makes a Jag feel especially different.

It’s the same effect that makes an ES335 with a Bigsby feel very different to an LP Junior with a wraparound despite having the same scale length.

TADodger said:

Thanks all. Being a bit of a light player, are 11’s still optimum, or would 10’s be a better choice for me?

@Musicwolf - Thanks for the science behind this but in the bending part you seem to be saying that a short scale should = less bend to achieve any particular pitch change which seems opposite to practice, or, is this showing that for any increase in string size the bend will be slightly less?

I like light strings (I use 9s on all other Fenders including my Jazzmaster, despite almost all advice) but I would still say 11s are the minimum for a Jaguar. You could try 10s if you have mustang saddles/mastery/staytrem, but they’re likely to be very weedy and “floppy feeling”

TADodger · June 2020

Looks like 11’s it is, thanks again.

Musicwolf · June 2020

TADodger said:

Thanks all. Being a bit of a light player, are 11’s still optimum, or would 10’s be a better choice for me?

@Musicwolf - Thanks for the science behind this but in the bending part you seem to be saying that a short scale should = less bend to achieve any particular pitch change which seems opposite to practice, or, is this showing that for any increase in string size the bend will be slightly less?

I can't guarantee that the maths at this time of the morning but I just tried a practical experiment using a Telecaster (25.5”) and a PRS SE Chris Robertson (24.5”). The PRS has 10’s and the Tele Hybrids so I had to make comparisons on a wound string. Trying to bend a note whilst checking on a rack tuner and then trying to measure with a ruler isn’t going to score well on a Gauge R&R study but it did seem to confirm that there was more displacement required on the longer scale length Telecaster, but it’s slight. The difference in feel is quite noticeable.

Musicwolf · June 2020

To give you a feel of the difference I repeated but with the same piece of tape across the finger board at the 9th fret, D string bend a B to C. The tape is the stuff used for scribble strips, it doesn't stretch much. It's so close that the difference is far more likely to be due to the angle of the pen or me relaxing my grip whilst marking.

ICBM · June 2020

A wound string needs to be moved further than a plain one for the same pitch rise, so if one was wound and the other plain the comparison doesn’t work. Depending on which string it is, a Tele and a PRS also have quite different string lengths beyond the nut.

Musicwolf · June 2020

They were both wound D strings, same gauge (the unwound were different gauges so no good to me). To measure it properly it's probably a two man job and ideally something other than a finger to bend the string. I think the key thing is that the difference in displacement isn't actually that great but the feel is very different. Difference in nut to peg difference is approx 90mm for the Tele vs 120mm for the PRS. Should also probably consider bridge to string anchor.

If constructing a real experiment I'd want a proper rig (i.e. not a guitar) whereby these things could be factored out.

TADodger · June 2020

To extend this question @ICBM and @stickyfiddle have said 11’s as a minimum. I am usually a fan of light strings, 9’s or 9.5’s, so if I fit 12’s, on a Jaguar, what string size can they be compared to on 25.5” scale?

stickyfiddle · June 2020

I generally think of 9s on a Strat being similar to 10s on a Gibson and 11s on a Jag.

Obviously they're a little thicker so your fingertips will need to adjust a tiny bit.

***

The physics question is an interesting one as the the interaction between scale length, total string length, sideways movement to bend a note and sideways force to bend a note is quite complex. I'm fairly sure I could run the numbers for any given string gauge and pitch, but I'm not sure I quite have the energy. I would be interested to know if anyone else has done it properly.

Musicwolf · June 2020

TADodger said:

To extend this question @ICBM and @stickyfiddle have said 11’s as a minimum. I am usually a fan of light strings, 9’s or 9.5’s, so if I fit 12’s, on a Jaguar, what string size can they be compared to on 25.5” scale?

I'm sure that D'Addario used to have an online calculator but it seems to be down at present. I found this one but I don't know how accurate it is (doesn't seem to have much by way of database)

https://tension.stringjoy.com/

stickyfiddle · June 2020

Musicwolf said:

TADodger said:

To extend this question @ICBM and @stickyfiddle have said 11’s as a minimum. I am usually a fan of light strings, 9’s or 9.5’s, so if I fit 12’s, on a Jaguar, what string size can they be compared to on 25.5” scale?

I'm sure that D'Addario used to have an online calculator but it seems to be down at present. I found this one but I don't know how accurate it is (doesn't seem to have much by way of database)

https://tension.stringjoy.com/

That's a good start, but doesn't answer the bending question, which needs a bit of geometry to work out - it's the combination of sideways force and distance that affects the feeling of tightness for bending.

Musicwolf · June 2020

Difficult to calculate but basically higher tension = harder to bend. You can find a gauge for a 24" scale length that has roughly equal tension to 9's on a 2.5" but I'd guess that this would be less that 11's.

If @ICBM recommends 11's min then that's based on real life experience on actual guitars so it's probably a case of fitting a set and 'manning up' - the numbers will take you so far, you need to try it. £6 and 20 minutes?

stickyfiddle · June 2020

Musicwolf said:

Difficult to calculate but basically higher tension = harder to bend. You can find a gauge for a 24" scale length that has roughly equal tension to 9's on a 2.5" but I'd guess that this would be less that 11's.

If @ICBM recommends 11's min then that's based on real life experience on actual guitars so it's probably a case of fitting a set and 'manning up' - the numbers will take you so far, you need to try it. £6 and 20 minutes?

Yes, absolutely agree with that, and my comments on gauges are based on my own experiences of Jags as well.

I’m just also a nerd so would like to understand the interaction between the factors better. I remember being struck by how direct and “slinky” feeling an LP Junior is when I first played one

Musicwolf · June 2020

Well this has got me playing around with various guitars and I've just picked up three guitars in quick succession. A PRS Core Studio 22, a PRS S2 semi-hollow and a Patrick Eggle Berlin Pro. All 25" scale length, all strung with EB Hybrids (9 - 46), all in standard tuning. High E string 12th fret bent up to F#.

The two PRS are near as dammit identical geometry, the Eggle has about 3mm less string between nut and peg.

It’s entirely subjective but I can definitely ‘feel’ a difference. It’s not massive but it’s there. In order of ease of bend I would say Eggle > S2 > Core. Worth noting that the Eggle and S2 have been re-strung / fret polish within May, the Core is more than due a change. The Core has the lowest action.

It's not just about the numbers / theory.

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Lazy string bending question

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