NOS valves - what to go for...

ICBM · July 2014

pmg said:

Blackstar ht 5 use 12bh7 valves

I'm fairly sure Dave knows that

.

I agree with him too. For a while in the 90s it did look like valve production might drop down to just 6L6/5881s, EL84s and 12AX7s. While that's probably too few, it should be possible to make almost all valve amp circuits work with a pretty small number of types overall, and it would probably be better not to develop new circuits which are hard to convert to alternatives.

I know it comes down to cost - and a single valve and its socket are obviously going to be cheaper than two - but designing an amp around a fairly rare valve like the 12BH7 does seem a bit daft when they could have done the same job with, say, two 12AT7s (I think - would need to check the exact spec), which is a common valve that's used in most older Fender amps and hence always will have fairly strong demand.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2014

The valves to go for depend on your amp. As wanky as it sounds, I tried two sets of vintage Mullards on my AC15TBX and they were too warm. A set of Harmas sounded much better to me, far clearer.

In my Cornell Romany Plus amps, I actually liked having an EHX valve in the preamp slot. It gave it a rougher sound which totally suited the amp.

ESchap · July 2014

OP asked if there was a decent guide around for the different types of old 12AX7 / ECC83 valves. From own experience, this guide is very accurate and believe it or onto on eBay! Gives some internal structure detail which is very helpful in finding those non Mullard / Amperex etc. labelled gems at a decent price.

http://www.ebay.com/gds/The-Tubekings-Guide-to-NOS-and-Vintage-Audio-Tubes-/10000000017053944/g.html

Having first purchased a few Mullard's when the prices weren't so stupid, then an old valve tester and since then amassed a ridiculously large collection of NOS valves. I buy predominantly used / untested which are a lot cheaper and find the fail rate, particularly on preamp valves is minimal, remarkable considering some have been 60 years old! However, I feel safe doing this, as with the tester I can at least test if the valve is electrically OK before putting it in an amplifier. Particularly important with power valves.

Agree with @ICBM appraisal of the difference they can make. More clarity, more harmonics and smoother top end is how I perceive them. But the different makes do have add slightly different colours e.g. Brimar are similar to Mullard, but a little darker. Hungarian Tungsram work really well in Silver Face fenders reducing the "fizz" really well. RFT's have more grit and work really well in cleaner amps if you want more overdrive without fizz. I find most USA made 12AX7's a little too bright and "clean", the old black plate versions from the 50's are richer (and more "British") sounding but stupidly expensive, much cheaper on this side of the pond to go for Mullard or Brimar.

I tend to do the whole preamp, not just V1. Quite often V1 alone makes little difference, but add V2 etc. and you will really notice it. Only exception is say a tremolo valve which would be a waste. I think the PI valve choice is really important as well and in my experience can make a big difference in the overall tone of the amp particularly at volume. I don't do the super balanced thing i.e. both sides of the 12AX7 are within a nano-amp of output of each other. I've tried well balanced through to fairly imbalanced valves in that position and can't hear much difference to be honest, though I'd suggest in most of the "vintage" circuits I've tried, the slightly imbalanced valve gave more harmonics at volume.

I've got mainly vintage amps and most don't seem to sound their best to me without the valves they were designed to use. I'd go further and add circuit faithful reissues to that as well. I've got a Fender Tweed Twin reissue that sounds so much better with old valves in it than it did with its Groove Tube Russians in. However, I completely agree with @Heartfeltdawn and some amps, particularly modern designed circuits, don't seem to benefit as much, or at all from NOS valves, other than perhaps longevity.

Heartfeltdawn · July 2014

@Eschap It was a lot of fun testing out different valves with the Romany Plus. It's a fairly simple circuit and you really could hear the different characteristics of each valve type and brand.

A discussion on valves wouldn't be right for me if I didn't say how much I hate JJ and TAD valves

ThePrettyDamned · July 2014

@eschap great guide! Bookmarked

and wisdom awarded.

Do the older, better valves make much difference in amps like a diezel, Laney vh100, 5153/6505 etc? Basically, does high gain ruin the effect or enhance it?

I've only ever heard modern valves... And a set of cryo (yeah, I was young and Watford saw me coming...).

ecc83 · July 2014

ICBM said:

pmg said:

Blackstar ht 5 use 12bh7 valves

I'm fairly sure Dave knows that .

I agree with him too. For a while in the 90s it did look like valve production might drop down to just 6L6/5881s, EL84s and 12AX7s. While that's probably too few, it should be possible to make almost all valve amp circuits work with a pretty small number of types overall, and it would probably be better not to develop new circuits which are hard to convert to alternatives.

I know it comes down to cost - and a single valve and its socket are obviously going to be cheaper than two - but designing an amp around a fairly rare valve like the 12BH7 does seem a bit daft when they could have done the same job with, say, two 12AT7s (I think - would need to check the exact spec), which is a common valve that's used in most older Fender amps and hence always will have fairly strong demand.

Yes I do!

I would have thought the ECC82 would be a better bet to pair up? B's already use them as a low Z driver in the S1's and the AT7 is really a short grid base RF triode and sort of 1/2 way in specc' between the 82 and 83. I also found them to be miccy and so if we are to be shot of one of the three?

But I think the company has secured plenty of stock. There are at least two different sources. I was also thinking very long term? In ten years or so it will surely be time to upgrade the Five and so a 3 valve jobbie might emerge?

Still! ALL speculations at the moment!

Dave.

ICBM · July 2014

ecc83 said:
I would have thought the ECC82 would be a better bet to pair up? B's already use them as a low Z driver in the S1's

Possibly, I just thought the 12AT7 because Fender used it (paralleled) as the reverb driver, which is essentially as a power triode. But now you mention it I remember that the HT-1 uses an ECC82 in push-pull, so why not use them paralleled in the 5… and ECC82s are still very common too.

ecc83 said:
But I think the company has secured plenty of stock. There are at least two different sources. I was also thinking very long term? In ten years or so it will surely be time to upgrade the Five and so a 3 valve jobbie might emerge?

I hope so. Designing in a limited lifespan (even if it's 10+ years) by using a more obscure component seems short-sighted to me, but I know cost is king and if 12BH7s are less expensive than 2xECC82+extra socket, I can see why they did it.

richardhomer · July 2014

I profess no technical knowledge as to why NOS valves are better but when I replaced the factory fitted (Sylvania made) 6L6s in my MkIII Boogie with later Boogie branded ones, it lost all it's magic.

It seemed to lack bass extension and sounded lacking in 'colour' - for want of a less pretentious sounding term....

When I replaced the pre-amp valves, the same thing happened again, making a once fantastic sounding amp flat and lifeless.

I don't doubt that the circuit was optimised around the characteristics of the original valves - but it could never get it to sound as good again.

Needless to say, I don't own it anymore....

ICBM · July 2014

richardhomer said:

I profess no technical knowledge as to why NOS valves are better but when I replaced the factory fitted (Sylvania made) 6L6s in my MkIII Boogie with later Boogie branded ones, it lost all it's magic.

It seemed to lack bass extension and sounded lacking in 'colour' - for want of a less pretentious sounding term....

When I replaced the pre-amp valves, the same thing happened again, making a once fantastic sounding amp flat and lifeless.

I don't doubt that the circuit was optimised around the characteristics of the original valves - but it could never get it to sound as good again.

Needless to say, I don't own it anymore....

I agree entirely, but why didn't you just buy new old valves?!

The difference isn't small, or "you'll never hear it when the bass and drums kick in", in case anyone is about to say that - quite the opposite… it's *more* noticeable at gig volume with a band. When I re-valved my Mesa DC-5 from the stock Chinese valves to a set of GE preamp/Sylvania power valves, the rest of the band actually stopped and asked what I'd done to it, it sounded so much bigger and more dynamic.

richardhomer · July 2014

ICBM;285464" said:
I agree entirely, but why didn't you just buy new old valves?!

Because at the time (early '90s) I had no idea such a thing existed!

Like many things in life, if I'd known then what I know now....

ICBM · July 2014

Ah, I see. That was the time when I started noticing the huge difference in valve quality between old and new too, and went looking for old ones. To be fair, new valves have improved drastically since then - the first Chinese valves and some of the East European ones available in the late 80s/ early 90s are some of the worst ever made.

Ironically, some sellers are now advertising these same junk valves as "NOS" just because they're now 20+ years old! Which is very reminiscent of today's "vintage" 1970s Strats, as I'm sure you will realise…

DartmoorHedgehog · July 2014

@eschap, thanks for pointing out that guide - very interesting, I hadn't seen that. Interesting point about your vintage amps sounding better with the valves they were designed for. My Rocker 30, being a modern design, would have been designed with modern valves in mind, so using that argument it ought to sound "wrong" with old valves (or not how Mr Emsley intended). I'm still curious to try some old ones in it though if I can pick up some without paying through the nose.

ICBM · July 2014

My experience with modern amps is that old-production valves almost always still sound better - it's not the amp design, it's the quality of the valves. There are a few where it seems to make little to no difference, but none I've ever heard where old valves actually sound worse.

jpfamps · July 2014

ThePrettyDamned said:

I wonder if there will ever be a market to make really high quality valves again?

I don't see why the Chinese can't do it - they clearly know how to make valves, they just need a vintage recipe book surely?

It would be lovely to be able to buy higher quality vintage style valves as a 'premium' range.

There is, and the Chinese (and a few small manufacturers eg KRaudio) do make them; however they are very much aimed at the hi-fi market, as these are the customers who will pay a premium for them, unlike many guitarists.

You would not believe the amount of conversations I have on the lines:

Customer: "I would like a set of output valves for my Blues Junior."

Me: "You will need a pair of EL84s. I have JJs for £22 a matched pair."

Customer "OK, I'll think about it".

DartmoorHedgehog · August 2014

Well, I bought some old valves. A '65 Mullard I63 and a couple of Tungsrams (all ECC83). They're all used, not NOS, but cost me about £50 for the lot, so no more than twice a new set of JJs. Power valves are still modern JJ EL34. Although I was sceptical I think the amp does sound slightly nicer with them than it did before - hard to define, it's not a "tone revelation" but there is something nice about it, both in cleans and drive. I've used it for a couple of gigs and some practices and there is "something" about the sound that I prefer over the modern valves. So I'm sort of an old valve convert - don't think I'd spend hundreds for holy grail '50s Mullards, but for twice the price of new ones I'm happy (and if they last for ages as well then I'm doubly happy).

I'll try to do a quick comparison sometime, but I've got a lot going on at the mo so it probably won't be for a bit...

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NOS valves - what to go for...

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