CNC at home - what would I need?

guitargeek62 · July 2022

Right, walk me through it - with specifics where relevant please!

I'm buying a new place this autumn and one of my requirements is a nice garage/workshop to finally have some dedicated space to build guitars again. I'm only aiming to do up to a handful of builds a year, so CNC feels a bit like overkill perhaps, but I like jumping in at the deep-end.

For those of you that have gone down this route, what are your rigs? What've you learnt? Would you do it again, or would you stick to power-tools & hand-tools?

I'm assuming I need:

A CNC... big enough for neck & body blanks. Do they typically included routers, or are they purchased separately? Presumably the former, so the speed can be more easily controlled etc? Also, I'm assuming a 3-axis one is ample?
Some sort of PC controller to hook it up to. I use a Mac for home and work use, but vaguely recall that most setups have a dedicated PC attached to them in some way.
CAD software, for creating/editing designs, and then (other s/w?) for running the programs in the CNC
A nice bench.
Clamps.... lots of clamps.
Dust extraction.
Uprated power supply.

If you're able to provide brands/models and a rough estimate for outlay that'd be amazing too

Funkfingers · July 2022

• Sound/vibration insulation. Otherwise, residents in the surrounding area will set the local government environmental nuisance department on you.

prowla · July 2022

When you say dust extraction - where is the dust going to go?

guitargeek62 · July 2022

prowla said:

When you say dust extraction - where is the dust going to go?

I've seen setups with hoppers/whatever etc. that it's fed into, I'd aim for something like this.

@Funkfingers - fair point, the new place will be pretty damn rural though so that should be something of a non-issue regardless

Sporky · July 2022

£15k at a guess. I bought a used K2 and rewired it when it caught fire. Mine has a Bosch router; there are pros and cons for router vs spindle.

If you fancy learning CAD and all the other bits of CNC work then it's great. If you just want to get on and build stuff then normal tools and machines are the way to go. You'll still need most of the same stuff - nothing comes off CNC ready to paint and assemble.

It does let you do things you can't do any other way, but not many of them

GSPBASSES · July 2022

May I make a suggestion, before you invest in anything for your workshop go onto Google, find some CADCAM programs that you can get a free download. There’s lots of them some of the better ones, and professional ones you can get a 20 day try out version. Play around with these to see if you can get your head round how CADCAM software works. If you haven’t a good idea how it works in the time it takes for the temporary license to run out, you might be wasting your time.

If you’ve made sense of a CADCAM software then you need to put it into practice on a CNC machine. There is a huge range of CNC machines ranging from £1400 up to about £6000. But the spending doesn’t stop there you still need all the machinery and tools that a normal woodworking shop would have.

I’ll show you 3 CNC machines that might be of interest to you if you decide to buy.

The first one is the cheapest, you can buy it from Amazon or eBay. The bed size is 400mm x 600mm, this bed size is more than sufficient for guitars, possibly not for through neck guitars or bass necks. There’s loads of YouTube videos on setting this machine up how it works, just about every think you’d ever need to know about it. There are several versions of this machine from different suppliers the prices range from about £800-£1800 I haven’t really found out what the differences is between them. One thing to look for is if the cutting head can take ½”tools.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Engraving-Engraver-Installation-Stainless-Aluminium/dp/B08JV67RGR/ref=sr_1_57?crid=HSH14I5BK369&keywords=cnc+router+machine&qid=1657546150&sprefix=,aps,56&sr=8-57

The next machine is if you fancy putting a Meccano set together then this is the one. Prices start about £1400 for one that’s more than adequate to make guitar on. Loads of videos on YouTube on how to build the machine set it up and get it running and making stuff. The good thing it’s made in the UK, the downside is, it uses a ¼” router as it’s cutting head. Has everybody knows these routers scream like a banshee. I have spoken to the manufacturers to find out if they would do the z-axis lift to take a high frequency water called spindle and they always come back and say no. If it did take this type of spindle I would’ve had one years ago. Obviously if noise is not a problem, it doesn’t matter, the only thing that worries me about using a conventional router would be, how long would it last for.

https://ooznest.co.uk/product/original-workbee-z1plus-cnc-machine/?gclid=CjwKCAjwquWVBhBrEiwAt1KmwuO84nsbUvY5WBr9J8KhaRbisTR3a6pKVCsyI0KxOg9GZ8GIcIo3JxoCXfoQAvD_BwE#size-colour

The next machine would be my choice, only I can’t get it in to my workshop, otherwise I would have it had it a few years ago. It comes in at 200 kg so not something you can manoeuvre with a couple of hefty blokes. I haven’t got enough headroom in my workshop for a hoist to lift it onto the workbench, but now having seen how TrentGuitars got theirs into the workshop, I’m talking to Scott Sargent again to see if we can sort something out.

The basic CNC comes In under £5000 you can pay a bit more to have a vacuum bed or nearly double to have an auto tool change. This CNC could almost certainly turn out guitars on an industrial scale (not sure if you want that ). That’s presuming you have a workshop big enough and people to assemble them.

https://www.scosarg.com/itech-k6090t-q-series-desktop-cnc-e

This is the CNC being unloaded at TrentGuitars you’ll see what I mean about how difficult is to manoeuvre.

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/207981/trent-guitars-from-the-workshop/p6

https://www.scosarg.com/itech-k6090t-q-series-desktop-cnc-e

I think the ooznest would most likely be the best bet it can do every think you're thinking, plus leaves loads of money to buy all the other equipment you would need in a workshop. Again that's providing noise isn't an issue.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

PS to the above all these machines run on the standard domestic 13 amp plug.

TrentGuitars · July 2022

To chime in on the itech CNC, it’s essentially like a mini industrial model. All the parts are really heavy duty - it has a steel welded subframe and the ways and ball screws are all much larger size than you see on kit machines. I’ve had mine nearly a year and been running it for 100+ hours now(edit: thinking about it probably over 250) probably cut more than 50 necks and bodies on it and I can very much recommend it if you want something with ‘tractor-like’ durability. Max cut speed is 6000mm/min, which is more than enough for this kind of work.

One thing I absolutely love about is is the ‘computer less’ design, ie. It is like an older style industrial computer kind of machine. Essentially just a control card then a big box of breakers with a VFD and stepper drivers - you just put a USB in the pendant and run it from there. It uses a very common industrial controller called the richauto a11. One really useful feature is you can do ‘mirror work’ which means you can make left handed guitars with no new paths!

If it’s in budget I really recommend it. There is an import version from Alixpress - which the itech is essentially a rebadge of, the Laguna Q series in the states is the same thing again. What you’re paying for with the brand name is the QC and warranty. The direct from China (6090 cnc or similar search term) is about £2500+shipping+import+VAT.

i do know quite a few makers who use kit machines to great success - so that can work too!

guitargeek62 · July 2022

Thanks gents, and @GSPBASSES - that's really helpful! A 400x600 seems like it'd be too small, so that's reassuring to hear advice to say otherwise! To be honest I may well end up using it for necks, fingerboards, inlays and pickguards alone so that should still be ample. Most of the builds I plan to do will be Jr or 'shape' guitars of various descriptions - I'm probably overcomplicating it by considering a CNC setup tbh, as templates and routers would be perfectly serviceable for the things I've got in mind.

Sporky · July 2022

The itech looks decent (to the point that I'm wondering if I can get one into my workshop to replace the K2), the other two look very flimsy.

TTony · July 2022

Q: How much will it cost?

A: Just a little bit more than you wanted to spend.

As Mr Sporks says, you can push out several boats, and spend several £k. Mine cost me a single £k, but it was s/h, and definitely priced at “mates rates”.

Mine is about 450*800 bed size, 3 axis, water cooled router. It also came with a laptop setup with the Mach3 router-controller software. That just sends the move, cut, move, cut (etc) instructions to the router, with some speed controls, etc. You’ll also need the CAD/CAM software to design the thing you want to cut, and generate the cut instructions. Those can be pricey, or free.

As Graham suggests (good to see the retirement is going well @gspbasses

), get a trial version to see which sw you find most intuitive, or least awkward.

They are fun, and great for cutting with ridiculous accuracy. Downside (for me) is that I’ve spent more time making various house stuffs than guitars (once my wife realised how useful it could be!).

guitargeek62 said:

A nice bench.
Clamps.... lots of clamps.
Dust extraction.
Uprated power supply.

Bench: an old modern (steel frame) office desk would be sturdy enough, and cheap.
Clamps: mine has t-track in the bed, so pieces are clamped fore & aft using clamping bars. Simples.
Dust: Yes, ideally built into the router assembly if you can.
Power: depending on how big you go, it’s just a controller & router. Standard plug.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

@TTony retirement is going very well thank you, we'll sort of. I'm only doing about 10 or 12 hours a week now, doctors orders. as full retirement was bad for me. The CNC idea is not all to do with guitars, I've been offered lots of work but can only be done on a CNC, with very little hand work. But to be honest I doubt if I'll be going down that route I'm 76 next birthday maybe it's time just to tick over, one or two Les Pauls a months will be easy going, without a CNC.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

I should've pointed out the first machine I mentioned is also available as a 600 X 900 bed. This one seems to only come as a 4 Axis machine, but it doesn't matter as you can use it as a 3 Axis.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Router-Engraving-Milling-Machine-Engraver/dp/B09FP7Q1CW/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=vaaTX&content-id=amzn1.sym.822afc68-e2bb-4420-ac6e-1044cd2e7c1d&pf_rd_p=822afc68-e2bb-4420-ac6e-1044cd2e7c1d&pf_rd_r=5JV0P0VAHF7PD18MKVR4&pd_rd_wg=BymtW&pd_rd_r=7d6977d6-783f-4bfd-bc3d-bd4753ee7e10&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mi

M1ck · July 2022

If you want to give CNC programming a go I’ve used WoodWop before and it used to be a free download so you could try one of the Homag sites. I don’t know if I still have a copy of the program and even if I did it might need something as old as win 98-ish to run.
just did a quick search and found it
https://www.homag.com/en/service/cnc-software-downloads
It clearly doesn’t change much I got my copy when I did my training - must be at least 15years ago and that was V7.0!

m_c · July 2022

I've not got too much time to reply, but I can tell you the major flaws in all the suggestions so far.

In short, the 6040 (60 x 40cm) machines (other common sizes are 3040, and 6090) that have been suggested, are built to a price.
They can be OK for light work, but they use unsupported rails (very bad for resonance/deflection under cutting loads).
Price wise, the key options are cheapest ones come with Acme/Square lead screws (poor efficiency/will wear and develop backlash quickly), slightly better ones come with ballscrews (better efficiency, but these budget machines will often be using ballscrews of dubious quality).
Other key options are what spindle they come with, which vary from cheap/noisy low power air cooled DC spindles, to water cooled VFD controlled spindles (you really want water cooled, as they are far quieter).
The rest of the machines, are pretty basic, and you'll spend a fair amount of time fettling them to keep them running at their best, which often isn't that great.

Oozenest and the like (there are numerous variations), often have dubious engineering. Oozenest use bog standard bearings running directly on the alu profiles, which are a recipe for an ongoing nightmare of keeping them adjusted well, and stopping debris from jamming them.

The likes of Itech, are pretty generic Chinese designs. They can be OK, but they certainly aren't a well engineered machine.
Most either use rack and pinion on the long axis (will usually wear quite rapidly due to poor quality materials used for the rack, leading to backlash), or a single ballscrew under the centre of the bed, which means the whole gantry twists under cutting forces.

If you are serious about getting a CNC router, I can put you in contact with someone who builds them within the UK ( IIRC @goldtop bought one of his previous machines), and even if it means he doesn't sell you one, he'll still tell you all the common issues to look out on pretty much any design you can find.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

One of the really good things about the TFB is how helpful people can be if you have a problem with something. Always with good advice lots of suggestions how you can overcome a problem or where you can get the problem solved.

Unfortunately there’s always one member who wants to piss on your parade.

@m_c maybe you should’ve spent a bit more time researching the iTech 600 x 900 CNC before you wrote a lot of misinformation about it. The machine is Chinese, it’s sold worldwide under different names, if it’s as crap as you were making it out to be, I think the company would have gone out of business years ago.

The iTech machine hasn’t got any rack and pinion parts on it, or Acme/Square lead screws. It has all ballscrews, so why have you implied that it’s got the inferior stuff on it when it clearly hasn’t. It has a water cooled spindle so why suggested it hasn’t.

I think the machine is value for money, fully capable of producing guitar bodies and necks over and over again to a very high standard. There is a video link below from a company in America who is using one of these machines to make a Strat. The video is a bit long but well worth a watch if you’re interested in seeing a CNC make a body. At the beginning of the video there’s a load of information about how the CNC is programmed to make the body.

https://youtu.be/-7iWHeVOECs

The ooznest is a light weight machine but it is still capable of producing guitar bodies and necks, not very quick. But there again you wouldn’t buy a machine like this if you were thinking of mass production. It’s certainly suitable for someone who wants to get into CNC without spending a huge amount of money. The machine is equipped with all ballscrew lead screws, because the machine is quite wide it has a ballscrew and stepper motor each side of the bed to help stability. There are countless videos on YouTube on how to use this machine, how to improve its performance plus endless videos on it being used making various things. My only real concern about this machine is it uses a standard router that can only use 1/4" bits or smaller, there is a problem finding one long enough to rout out control pockets that are deep.

https://youtu.be/wvH-Vs2emWM

The second video shows how accurate the machine can be.

The CNC 600 x 900 from Amazon or ebay also only runs on ballscrews it also has a water cooled spindle. Watching some of the videos on YouTube this looks like an excellent machine for under £2000. There’s lots of videos showing how the machine works how to program it, plus the good points and bad points. The link below shows the machine being unboxed and setup. The guy who made this video has lots of videos about using the machine, well worth a watch, some of them are a bit long winded. He is also very critical of the machine and points out its bad points where necessary.

https://youtu.be/lBRxi6LVI6Q

If we look back at the original post, @guitargeek62 was looking at is it worth having a CNC starting from scratch in the workshop or is that an overkill. He was not looking for an industrial size CNC machine to turn out thousands of guitars. Let’s keep things in perspective, a reasonably priced CNC will do what’s required. When using a desktop CNC you soon learn its limitations, then run the machine accordingly. I haven't yet come across any reports of the any of the machines I've mentioned failing because of parts wearing out and be coming in accurate. I am also sure there are other machines out there that would fit the bill. The machines I’ve mentioned are the ones I’ve been looking at over a couple of years, but my pending retirement (it’s been pending for at least 10 years) has stopped me purchasing a machine. If Scott Sergeant can find a way of getting the iTech CNC into my workshop, I will almost certainly buy one.

If anybody has come across similar CNC machines at a sensible price, please post the information, it would be most welcome.

m_c · July 2022

GSPBASSES said:

One of the really good things about the TFB is how helpful people can be if you have a problem with something. Always with good advice lots of suggestions how you can overcome a problem or where you can get the problem solved.

Unfortunately there’s always one member who wants to piss on your parade.

@m_c maybe you should’ve spent a bit more time researching the iTech 600 x 900 CNC before you wrote a lot of misinformation about it. The machine is Chinese, it’s sold worldwide under different names, if it’s as crap as you were making it out to be, I think the company would have gone out of business years ago.

The iTech machine hasn’t got any rack and pinion parts on it, or Acme/Square lead screws. It has all ballscrews, so why have you implied that it’s got the inferior stuff on it when it clearly hasn’t. It has a water cooled spindle so why I suggested it hasn’t.
I think the machine is value for money, fully capable of producing guitar bodies and necks over and over again to a very high standard. There is a video link below from a company in America who is using one of these machines to make a Strat. The video is a bit long but well worth a watch if you’re interested in seeing a CNC make a body. At the beginning of the video there’s a load of information about how the CNC is programmed to make the body.

https://youtu.be/-7iWHeVOECs

The ooznest is a light weight machine but it is still capable of producing guitar bodies and necks, not very quick. But there again you wouldn’t buy a machine like this if you were thinking of mass production. It’s certainly suitable for someone who wants to get into CNC without spending a huge amount of money. The machine is equipped with all ballscrew lead screws, because the machine is quite wide it has a ballscrew and stepper motor each side of the bed to help stability. There are countless videos on YouTube on how to use this machine, how to improve its performance plus endless videos on it being used making various things. My only real concern about this machine is it uses a standard router that can only use 1/4" bits or smaller, there is a problem finding one long enough to rout out control pockets that are deep.

https://youtu.be/wvH-Vs2emWM
The second video shows just an accurate the machine can be.

The CNC 600 x 900 from Amazon or ebay also only runs on ballscrews it also has a water cooled spindle. Watching some of the videos on YouTube this looks like an excellent machine for under £2000. There’s lots of videos showing how the machine works how to program it, plus the good points and bad points. The link below shows the machine being unboxed and setup. The guy who made this video has lots of videos about using the machine, well worth a watch, some of them are a bit long winded. He is also very critical of the machine and points out its bad points where necessary.

https://youtu.be/lBRxi6LVI6Q

If we look back at the original post, @guitargeek62 was looking at, is it worth having a CNC starting from scratch in the workshop or an overkill. He was not looking for an industrial size CNC machine to turn out thousands of guitars. Let’s keep things in perspective, a reasonably priced CNC will do what’s required. When using a desktop CNC you soon learn its limitations, then run the machine accordingly. I haven't yet come across any reports of the any of the machines I've mentioned failing because of parts wearing out and be coming in accurate. I am also sure there are other machines out there that would fit the bill. The machines I’ve mentioned are the ones I’ve been looking at over a couple of years, but my pending retirement (it’s been pending for at least 10 years) has stopped me purchasing a machine. If Scott Sergeant can find a way of getting the iTech CNC into my workshop, I will almost certainly buy one.

If anybody has come across similar CNC machines at a sensible price, please post the information, it would be most welcome.

Maybe if you read what I posted, you'd have realised I never said the itech had rack and pinion.
I said it's a pretty generic Chinese machine, the likes of which either use rack and pinion, or a single ballscrew, and listed the issues each design has.
Once you go wider than a couple foot, you really want twin ballscrews for rigidity.

I've been involved with CNC machinery for a long time, and although I don't personally have a router yet (i have two mills, and a lathe, and i have a design done for a 4x4 router), I've seen enough people expose the virtues of certain styles of machines, usually based on various YouTube videos produced by people who don't know better.
While the reality is, the machines often involve endless fettling to produce a reasonable result, or they're just not durable.

If you're happy to be continually fettling, then by all means buy whatever your favoured YT star is recommending, but if you want something that'll just work, do your research.
Most machines have compromises in their design, and it's a case of learning what they are, so you can try and make the best decision for yourself.

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post, was if you just want something to try CNC and willing to risk some money doing so, check out the small self-assembly router kits like - https://m.vevor.co.uk/wood-engraving-machine-c_11142/3018-pro-cnc-router-3-axis-w-offline-controller-laser-engraver-machine-10000rpm-p_010521182027
(Plenty other sources exist, that's just one I know a couple people have actually bought to play with)

They're never going to be a 'good' machine, but with a bit fettling, they'll machine some OK stuff, and not take up much space.
The main thing is, they'll give you a machine to learn and physically try the whole CNC process, which I think is far more valuable than watching endless videos/guides.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

I'm certainly not going get into a pissing contest with you, I said what I believe and I will stick with it. I will just mention that I used to be a CNC operator making prototype high precision metal parts, programming Lines of G code manually, so been there done that got the T-shirt. Conversation closed as far as I'm concerned.

GSPBASSES · July 2022

@guitargeek62 Let’s get back on topic, if you decide CNC it’s not the way to go have look at my post https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/230913/how-to-build#latest. Relatively easy to build not terribly expensive, they are very accurate. I think they are safer than hand routing. I am in the middle of writing a post on how easy it is to modify jigs for a pin router and how I go about it. In that post there is also a link to a post I wrote a while ago how to turn a paper plane's into a jigs for a pin router, then the making of the guitar.

TrentGuitars · July 2022

For the level of precision needed for guitar work, I havent encountered the issues you claim the itech would have - I also already mentioned beforehand that I'm aware it's a rebadge of a generic Chinese CNC which they produce many MANY units of a month. I can honestly say I fully trust the machine after the hundreds of hours I've run it - nearly all of which has been at 5000mm/min so not at all the slower settings.

I understand if you're in the industry you will always see smaller machines that don't have ideal on paper designs would be something to look down on, but look at it in the right context and you'll see it's a lot of machine for the money - especially if you're VAT registered..

Sporky · July 2022

TrentGuitars said:

I can honestly say I fully trust the machine after the hundreds of hours I've run it

I'd say that's a good endorsement from someone who's actually used a CNC machine to build guitars.

My K2 works nicely now, but I'm willing to bet I've had your put a lot more time, effort, and swearing into it. And it cost the same used as yours did new (especially if I include the controller rebuild) - things have moved on significantly in ten years. I'm probably past the hundred hour mark on mine, but a lot hasn't been guitars. I've done some sign making, lots of house stuff, planing of particularly awkward timber and more.

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CNC at home - what would I need?

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