Scottish Referendum question(s)

johnnyurq · September 2014

Drew_fx said:

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/johnnyurq/Silly/devo_zpsaa04df80.jpg

To the.

http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i474/johnnyurq/Silly/MaxH_zps1368d808.jpg

Bluds.

Fretwired · September 2014

fretmeister said:

Yougov predicting 54% No vote, with 99% certainty.

Guess we'll see if the algorithm worked tomorrow!

Interesting .. however CNN has just published a poll saying 52% will vote yes and 58% will vote no .. the yanks were always good at maths .. 110% effort.

I'm impressed with the turnout and the level of engagement in Scotland. I was also anti-16 year olds getting the vote but have changed my mind having seen the way they have engaged with the political process in Scotland - I need to stop being and old git. England could do with PR and lowering the voting age to enliven political debate .. and it shows Britain in a good light around the world. A free and fair election without violence with an opportunity for Scotland to go it alone .. the EU doesn't know what to make of it .. Hollande's speech tonight about the fate of Europe being in the balance is odd. If Scotland gaining independence means other regions around Europe can do the same then a revolution could be at hand. I still think it will be a no vote ..

johnnyurq · September 2014

RaymondLin said:

If its Yes Salmond stands down?

Lol haha, funniest thing I've read during the whole thing ! No way.

And no, I don't think the Yes got within touching distance, I actually don't think this will be close at all, it'll be bigger than a double digit percentage difference.

You know what @RaymondLin you ramping up the rather hysterical hyperbole is not helping make for a good mannered debate and you are engaging in the very behaviour you are having a pop at.

By all means have an opinion but maybe try expressing it without resorting to sarcastic snidey comments.

Plus it is abundantly clear you do not have a scooby's what the real issues are and yet make pronouncements as fact when they are in fact opinions, not very pleasant ones either.

If we all took your approach it would be guaranteed to get ugly.

Firstly to assert that we are all shouting freedom and harking back to medieval times rather than actually engaged with the issues that matter to the vast majority of us, Nats and Salmond fanboys are very much in the minority.

Once again talking at us instead of trying to fund out why it has come to this as you seem to do along with successive westminster governments. Maybe this instead of Mel Gibson and Salmond/Nats is why, just a thought.

You also claim we are all thinking we are superior (some deluded folks will anywhere) when it is actually different (in the main) in our politics and desire for social justice, different you see not better. You conflated that from tired old attitudes based on media and politicians dripping that BS out there.

We are more left leaning politically speaking and a lot of England is more conservative with a small C.

On the whole we are very similar all over the UK but fundamental differences are there and will not go away in the short term, if ever. That applies to UK regions as well as between the home nations.

You also wonder why SNP/AS are given credence, well by and large they have kept all their pledges and the like and delivered upon most promise with most of the remainder under way.

So I know which has a better track record so far.

When was the last time any Westminster government has done similar?

BTW I am not a Nat or AS lover, he is shrewd though and has gotten a lot of good done, which sets him apart from his Westminster peers.

The seeds of this happening were sown in the 70's and accelerated due Thatchers tenure and sadly continued during the Blair and Brown years.

In the 70's nobody bar some Nats were not at all interested in independence until the turn of the decade and it has accelerated ever since.

Go and read up on it then have an informed opinion rather than BS based on old prejudices.

camf · September 2014

^^^^
This

RaymondLin · September 2014

johnnyurq said:

RaymondLin said:

If its Yes Salmond stands down?

Lol haha, funniest thing I've read during the whole thing ! No way.

And no, I don't think the Yes got within touching distance, I actually don't think this will be close at all, it'll be bigger than a double digit percentage difference.

You know what @RaymondLin you ramping up the rather hysterical hyperbole is not helping make for a good mannered debate and you are engaging in the very behaviour you are having a pop at.

By all means have an opinion but maybe try expressing it without resorting to sarcastic snidey comments.

Plus it is abundantly clear you do not have a scooby's what the real issues are and yet make pronouncements as fact when they are in fact opinions, not very pleasant ones either.

If we all took your approach it would be guaranteed to get ugly.

Firstly to assert that we are all shouting freedom and harking back to medieval times rather than actually engaged with the issues that matter to the vast majority of us, Nats and Salmond fanboys are very much in the minority.

Once again talking at us instead of trying to fund out why it has come to this as you seem to do along with successive westminster governments. Maybe this instead of Mel Gibson and Salmond/Nats is why, just a thought.

You also claim we are all thinking we are superior (some deluded folks will anywhere) when it is actually different (in the main) in our politics and desire for social justice, different you see not better. You conflated that from tired old attitudes based on media and politicians dripping that BS out there.

We are more left leaning politically speaking and a lot of England is more conservative with a small C.

On the whole we are very similar all over the UK but fundamental differences are there and will not go away in the short term, if ever. That applies to UK regions as well as between the home nations.

You also wonder why SNP/AS are given credence, well by and large they have kept all their pledges and the like and delivered upon most promise with most of the remainder under way.

So I know which has a better track record so far.

When was the last time any Westminster government has done similar?

BTW I am not a Nat or AS lover, he is shrewd though and has gotten a lot of good done, which sets him apart from his Westminster peers.

The seeds of this happening were sown in the 70's and accelerated due Thatchers tenure and sadly continued during the Blair and Brown years.

In the 70's nobody bar some Nats were not at all interested in independence until the turn of the decade and it has accelerated ever since.

Go and read up on it then have an informed opinion rather than BS based on old prejudices.

My approach? Have you read what I wrote previously in this thread?

johnnyurq · September 2014

Well it is all over bar the shouting, wailing and gnashing of teeth, thank fuck.

I can understand why some down south are sad and bemused by it all and it is sad that a lot of shared history could stop here and a new relationship grown into (either way the vote goes) but lets try to not let it get nasty. We will have to coexist whatever happens and doing so the right or dare I say it the British way is the nest way forward.

From a historical point of view (I am very much a history lover) despite how the union came about in 1707 I think a union was on the cards since James I and VI saw it as an endgame after the union of the crowns. Wo knows when and how it would have taken shape.

The way it did happen I think has coloured peoples perception of the union and it seems this continues to the present day. It has come up time and time again as a bone of contention by some and an accusation of why Scots should be subservient by some (not in hear though).

Yes it was a big and very risky punt in behalf of the investors mainly Scots elites but other nationalities too and no ordinary Scot would have had a say or in fact any contribution to make financially.

Remember in those times as well as before and since most nations jockeying for riches, fame and power took part some risky and dodgy "adventures" where some went well and others failed miserably.

Lets not forget that Darien which led to the union was not totally a Scottish failure and action taken by the East India company and affiliates helped make a slim chance of success a certain failure by embargoing Darien and threatening amy who gave aid or succour.

Now I don't say that to accuse or hold a y grudge because all the protagonists of the time would likely have done the same Scotland included if the boot was on the other foot. The past is a different country and all that.

Just it needs said that it is not quite as simple as it is fed to us and seldom black and white. A few weeks ago one of the Simon Schama series had an episode where he mentioned the fuller version of the events, as have loads of other eminent scholars in print and on telly.

But as I and others here gave said say an awful lot of historical events are far more grey and murky and really. Beyond academic interest and getting nearer the facts the attitudes belong in the past and have no real bearing on why it has come to this juncture, that is far more recent.

The future is where it is at now whatever the result and I would welcome a more federalised union where home nations and bigger regions decide on issues solely for them mad leave Westminster doing the truly pan UK stuff. And it should happen no or yes.

We are as tired as you are regarding the West Lothian question and revisiting the Barnett formula along with any other contentious issues, but based on facts not opinion and vested interests.

Even Sky News say that Scotland puts more (apart from a few years) back in that was received and coming from a Murdoch organ I am inclined to believe that. In any case having a better look whether Yes or Devo Max/Devo for all would hopefully put it all to rest finally.

The decision by whomever to exclude a more Devo option along with the negative and divisive crap emanating mainly from (although not exclusively) the No lot.

From my perspective some of what has emerged in the dying weeks if it had been discussed as passionately then they would have all gotten the message better and be less shocked as to why we are here at the cusp of a possible Yes. I am still forecasting a No BTW.

Look at it this way if we have a sensible and good mannered way forward whatever the outcome England (and UK) may lose a surly lodger and gain a staunch neighbour, as we have been in the whole over the life of the union so far.

Anyhoo the fat lady is gargling and warming up for who knows what result.

RaymondLin · September 2014

I keep hearing SNP fulfilling promises they made, what kind of promises?

Have you actually read what he promises for the Yes Campaign? Do you know how many pages out of the 700 pages White Paper the SNP has on the issue of cost to create an independent country?

1 Page. That's how much they know on the costs. They have no clue how much it costs to set up an independent country. If they have no idea how much it costs, then the promises have no ceiling and will promises the earth. What they have promised and delivered so far are small potatoes. Salmond and the SNP knows that this is a one shot event, they have no second chance at this so from the get go they have promises all kind of things with no grounds.

There is no grounds for Scotland to get into the EU without proper application and agreement from all EU members. That is a fact.

There is no grounds for Scotland to have a currency union. BoE says no, the Chancellor says no, all the politicians who has the power in this matter says no.

I am not saying I think Scottish people think they are superior, you are twisting my words. It is a point about some people I have encounter who has the idea that Westminster is broken and they think their own politician can do better. I am saying that is just a dream and we are all human with the same flaws. Across history, for thousands of years. it is proven. That is why we have an election every 5 years, our chance to kick out the government if they don't deliver what they promised. To think that Scottish government is somehow going to be better than Westminster because it is all Scots is nothing more than blind optimism. It is a natural human trait to be proud and think you are better than the next person. Don't tell me you are not sitting there now thinking what an idiot i am right now. We are not different to each other !

At the end of the day all I am saying are united is better than a separation.

it doesn't matter anyway, either a Yes or a No, there will be changes.

p.s. the freedom thing was a joke, followed the Mel Gibson video...you Scots lost your sense of humour? (how's that for sarcasm for you

)

johnnyurq · September 2014

RaymondLin said:

johnnyurq said:

RaymondLin said:

If its Yes Salmond stands down?

Lol haha, funniest thing I've read during the whole thing ! No way.

And no, I don't think the Yes got within touching distance, I actually don't think this will be close at all, it'll be bigger than a double digit percentage difference.

My approach? Have you read what I wrote previously in this thread?

Yes indeed I did which is why I decided to address some of what you had said.

Read your comments again yourself with a less emotional head on and you will see some (not all)of your comments come off as patronising, high handed and more than a bit uninformed. Sorry bit that is my genuine assessment and is not meant as a personal attack.

You seem genuinely confused and unaware of why this has come about over the decades and now having been accelerated in recent months.

The time to have these debates with all this passion was at least a year ago, it is not our fault some were not interested in engaging in a proper debate until the fag end of the referendum, this applies to Scots up here and elsewhere in the UK too BTW.

Also if you were not getting the full facts down your way then again how are ordinary Scots to blame, we wanted the rest of the UK as informed as they possibly could be.

Clarky · September 2014

johnnyurq said:

Lets not forget that Darien which led to the union was not totally a Scottish failure and action taken by the East India company and affiliates helped make a slim chance of success a certain failure by embargoing Darien and threatening amy who gave aid or succour.

I think Spain helped that endeavour to fail too via military means.. and when you consider Spain's interests in that part of the world at the time, it's unsurprising.. so no matter what, Spain would see to it that Central America would remain Spanish.. maybe that whole thing was doomed to fail before it was planned..

RaymondLin · September 2014

johnnyurq · September 2014

RaymondLin said

Snip

Well no surprise because none of them affected to were remotely relevant over the border, one would be the pledge to get an Indyref with a Devo option and got all but that latter devo bit, but tat was the 3 parties that did that and was beyond their control.

There is in fact a lot of important things that they did including implementing measures to take the sting out of some ill thought out Westminster poiicies. Some health and education stuff along with infrastructure and capital projects that helped a bit re the downturn/recession.

At the moment I cannot remember all the specifics but they are a matter of public record.

Well you see the money aspect of it whilst important is not the main driving force for a lot of people here so getting the truth of these matters during this at times crappy process was never in the cards, in truth the facts most likely lie somewhere in between.

As much as you say the SNP et al are lying may very well be true it is small beer compared to what has come from a well funded, well connected toff fest (all 3 parties) and lying barstewards, Their BS and lies were longer, harder, faster and more exaggerated than anything coming from AS.

Still doesn't excuse him as the true facts are what was important but as I say very unlikely to happen.

Sorry but you did very much insinuate Scots were trying to come across as superior, Scots may be many things but having a national superiority complex is just silly. The Scottish psyche is more apt to be down on ourselves and negative about ourselves.

On the possibility of our wee parochial Parliament eventually trying to emulate their Westminster cousins well yes they may down the line.

johnnyurq · September 2014

But for now they have done well on that score and one would hope that being a small country with less sophisticated or elitist we can be more reactive and turn faster than the juggernaut of Westminster. Like as with the reactions to mitigate the bedroom tax etc for the more vulnerable in our society.

Recent decades track records and behaviour are more important in me saying that.

So that gives me cause for optimism whether it is independence or a Devo max scenario.

If so much of what we may get and currently have then lobby your MPs and try to get a better deal for yourselves, hell we would support that and welcome it. It is all about where your collective priorities lie.

Not being a Nat I can understand nationalism being viewed as a problem but the facts are ours are mostly harmless and fairly small in number. If I was English I would be more concerned about the myriad of nationalist groups there and now thought to be on the rise and ever more right wing since all the immigration hyperbole recently and as a result of the rise of IS/ISIS/ISIL. It is very worrying and I hope that those attitudes do not get purchase here.

Some shouting and the odd egg is low level compared to actual violence done by some if these nutters in the past mad even recently.

I would wager that at least one or more of the English nats groups are better funded and bigger than our lot.

But, and here is my point about some of your assertions is that I would never say that their rise means it is endemic and that views are held by any more than a relatively small number and not all English folks.

Same applies here and a vote for yes is not a vote for SNP/AS and whether you believe it or not we will not be ruled by wee King Eck and co, they will dissolve after a while to their aligned parties of choice.

They are made up of a cross section of different ends of the political spectrum (such as it is these days) so will not make for happy bedfellows once the independence thing is decided.

For sure we are more the same than different and yes I and many Scots will be sad if the Union does not endure but it is time to grasp the opportunity to get behind independence or not. I suspect a lot of other parts of the UK would do so if given the chance as being pissed off with our politicians is not unique to Scotland

Saying that there are some fundamental cultural and environmental differences that exist all over the UK.

Difference is we do have this historic vote and in the absence of a Devo option and an arrogant and negative No campaign has brought us here and now.

And no I do not think you are an idiot maybe not in full cognisance of the facts (not necessarily your fault entirely) but just repeating tired old media driven cliches is not ideal other.

As it is it looks like we will still have a union and however changed that is is down to us all, so lets make it better and more of a true union for all rather than a bitch fest.

No sense of humours fail here, I may be at times a dour Scot but like a good laugh. I will look again in case I did indeed miss it but I never saw anything to say it was meant in jest. If so it is my bad for failing to spot it.

Peace anyhow and not long now.

johnnyurq · September 2014

Clarky said:

johnnyurq said:

Lets not forget that Darien which led to the union was not totally a Scottish failure and action taken by the East India company and affiliates helped make a slim chance of success a certain failure by embargoing Darien and threatening amy who gave aid or succour.
I think Spain helped that endeavour to fail too via military means.. and when you consider Spain's interests in that part of the world at the time, it's unsurprising.. so no matter what, Spain would see to it that Central America would remain Spanish.. maybe that whole thing was doomed to fail before it was planned..

No doubt at all that was indeed another nail in the coffin of Darien as many had a bested interest in it failing, as for English ventures then and since.

It still remains that there was a diktat from the East India Co and England etc that no one was to help or they would intervene militarily.

As i say not having a go just pointing out it was a more complex affair, that sort of shit was par for the course then all over. Different times.

It may have been a disaster without any external factors but the point is we will never know for certain and historically the difference between success and failure for risky ventures by smaller countries like Scotland, England and in turn the UK was wafer thin mainly down to tenacity and dumb luck.

Ever has it been so especially for those punching above their weight as all the UK home nations have dome at various times in their history.

A lot to be proud of and some not so from us all, no guilt though just acknowledgement and not repeating the mistakes.

Ediit.

Oops and apologies.

Some weirdness meant I had to split thee reply above, too much waffle as usual LOL.

viz · September 2014

So it's done. I hope we can come to a place of mutual pride and respect.

RaymondLin · September 2014

as I predicted, it's not close and a double digit percentage margin win,

Gassage · September 2014

Fuck- looks like the British and Irish Lions will have to carry the Sweaties again

Although in terms of a rebrand, the British Irish and Scottish lions is a bit of a mouthful

Rocker · September 2014

Not as close as some polls predicted. Congrats and well done to all Scotland for deciding so decisively. Democracy 'done right' is a powerful force. The high turnout leaves no room for the doubters. The people have spoken, now it is up to the politicians to listen to what they said and act in accordance with the wishes of the people....

ICBM · September 2014

Well there it is.

I'm not sorry to have voted yes, and I just hope that the size of the margin will not be seized on by those who want to block change. In some ways it's less of a disappointment than losing by a couple of percent, and is still closer than would have been thought even a couple of weeks ago.

I'm actually more disappointed the turnout was only 84%. That sounds like a lot, but it still means one in six Scots didn't vote.

The good thing is that a real debate seems to have started in England now. Perhaps things will change for the better after all.

Gassage · September 2014

It also means for the next 4 yrs that phrase that's only ever heard in small corner shops will resonate throughout England... " I think you'll find that's LEGAL TENDER!!"

thomasross20 · September 2014

Democracy done!

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Scottish Referendum question(s)

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