Kahler Locking Trem Help Needed!

delorean · June 25

I recently picked up a great 1986 MIJ Strat which has a factory fitted locking nut and Kahler 2520 trem.

But... The whammy bar doesn't stay put - it just swings loosely . If I tighten it all the way to the point where it finally stays in place, it's pointing backwards.. Arrgh!

Short of Gorilla Glueing the damn thing (no, not really), any ideas what I can do to remedy this?

Thanks in advance!

WezV · June 25

Quick fix - PTFE tape on the threads, enough so it stops where you want.

skullfunkerry · June 25

PTFE tape?

Habanero · June 25

skullfunkerry said:

PTFE tape?

Think insulating tape. Parcel tape or sellotape would probably disintegrate easily.

SteveRobinson · June 25

skullfunkerry said:

PTFE tape?

delorean · June 25

WezV said:

Quick fix - PTFE tape on the threads, enough so it stops where you want.

Ah good thinking - I'll give that a go, thanks!

Any ideas for a more permanent solution? The seller seemed to think a spring of some sort would be needed, but he wasn't much more descriptive other that that!

guitars4you · June 25

delorean said:

WezV said:

Quick fix - PTFE tape on the threads, enough so it stops where you want.

Ah good thinking - I'll give that a go, thanks!

Any ideas for a more permanent solution? The seller seemed to think a spring of some sort would be needed, but he wasn't much more descriptive other that that!

You can put a small spring under the Trem arm so inside the thread section of the block- It does work and Fender suggest this and sell them

https://www.fender.com/en-GB/parts/bridges/american-series-stratocaster-tremolo-arm-tension-springs/0994931000.html

scrumhalf · June 25

I put some PTFE tape on the bar on my Strat. It's been working fine for years now. It's been a quick, cheap and easy fix.

Presumably Eric Johnson can tell the difference between different brands of tape.

Funkfingers · June 25

scrumhalf said:

Presumably, Eric Johnson can tell the difference between different brands of tape.

EJ could put that skill to good use if/when PTFE is banned for the bio-toxicity of its breakdown products.

•

Try to wrap the tape over the vibrato arm threads so as to form a gentle taper - thicker towards the bend in the arm. This helps the tape to fill the slack in the block threads.*

* This is how PTFE tape achieves its magic.

The wraps eventually bond chemically to form a dependable barrier between threaded pipe fittings. These, in turn, prevent leaks in plumbing installations.

The common name for this product is plumber's tape.

xGizmo · June 25

I kind of recall that the grub screw accessed on the rear of the trem body locks the arm inplace (its been 20 years since i looked at one of these though)

Image: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMS2eCtRIKdBrsXSlg311i6OBsXv9XdB77NiY3HP1ILqV9wb4cKb7LPueBRdCucwH__mdhl6iZXsnL7xnvIsEwNMOsKb8z5LaEmtDBt0urrGfLszuyfe65fm0PQzUO0ryjNtrFyd0w8f_2fDE8p5kjW=w800-h1127-s-no

Funkfingers · June 25

Gizmo said:

Excellent photograph of the Kahler 2500/2520 "Traditional" fulcrum vibrato bridge …

BUT

… did the 1986 MIJ Stratocaster feature this or Fender's own System 1 vibrato?

Philly_Q · June 25

Funkfingers said:
Excellent photograph of the Kahler 2500/2520 "Traditional" fulcrum vibrato bridge …

BUT

… did the 1986 MIJ Stratocaster feature this or Fender's own System 1 vibrato?

It's a long time ago and I don't remember for sure, but it seems there were late-'80s Fenders with the Kahler traditional bridge:

https://reverb.com/item/65353032-fender-stratocaster-standard-model-2-w-kahler-tremolo-1987-vintage-white

Image: https://rvb-img.reverb.com/image/upload/s--RU_es66n--/a_0/f_auto,t_large/v1674947372/ee7tci7fnjyrwohffizp.jpg

I'm assuming that bridge is original... it wouldn't be a direct replacement for the System 1 as I think that had wider stud spacing:

Image: https://www.whammyparts.com/images/FS1-Tremolo.jpg

Funkfingers · June 25

Kahler 25xx vibrato bridge family has the same two-point pivot spacing as Fender American Standard BUT wildly different pivot design.

ICBM · June 25

Funkfingers said:

Kahler 25xx vibrato bridge family has the same two-point pivot spacing as Fender American Standard BUT wildly different pivot design.

The posts do at least fit the same body insert threads, from memory.

This is useful, since it means you can replace the Kahler with a USA Std bridge when the Kahler becomes unserviceable. (Although the string clamp at the other end also needs to be removed and a string tree fitted.)

Funkfingers · June 25

IIRC, the Kahler 25xx was available with pivot posts and inserts of two different diameters. Only one of these is directly compatible with Fender USA and MIM.

delorean · June 25

Damn I love this site, you guys are so knowledgeable!

delorean · June 25

Gizmo said:

I kind of recall that the grub screw accessed on the rear of the trem body locks the arm inplace (its been 20 years since i looked at one of these though)

Unbelievably, I hadn't even spotted this grub screw hole - there's no screw in it, but there's definitely a hole there!

Philly_Q · June 25

delorean said:

Gizmo said:

I kind of recall that the grub screw accessed on the rear of the trem body locks the arm inplace (its been 20 years since i looked at one of these though)

Unbelievably, I hadn't even spotted this grub screw hole - there's no screw in it, but there's definitely a hole there!

If I remember right, there was a little piece of hard plastic in that hole, which the grub screw pressed against the trem arm....

And you can still buy spares:

https://whammyparts.com/manufacturer/tremolo-and-bridge-systems/make-model/kahler-replacement-parts/25xx-traditional/results,1-0

BillDL · June 26

From the page linked to by @Philly_Q you would be looking for the parts 109 and 110:

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/388c718b4bbe925dfd999558de8eda24cd3b03ce9615418096

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/af871da24bf2b124aa4e38f7e18abb521a6dcf5c38479ebaf0

I don't know what thread that grub screw is, but I would guess it's imperial and probably UNC 6-32 or maybe UNF 6-40. A number of years ago while I was looking for exactly the same solution as you, but hadn't found anywhere to buy the parts, I found a white nylon set screw / grub screw with the right thread and the flat blade screwdriver end as shown below, and it worked pretty well, but you can't tighten them too much without chewing the screwdriver socket:

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/714db3f45b7751277700a73817da305f7098a5c672fb9ca0fa

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/ae166a40db4fba70a4fde3f169dd698352aee160c593242964

You can also get nylon tipped grub screws and even "spring plunger" grub screws with a spring-loaded captive ball bearing in the end. I've used both of these on Fender style trem bridges where I tapped a hole up through the block and the grub screw up through the block pressed against the bottom of the arm. Either of them might work through the edge of a trem bridge to apply some pressure to the circumference of the smooth part of the arm.

Funkfingers · June 26

delorean said:

Damn I love this site, you guys are so knowledgeable!

Nah. Just old.

Senility robs recent, short-term memories. Useless information, garnered decades ago, stays put.

ICBM · June 26

Funkfingers said:

Nah. Just old.

Senility robs recent, short-term memories. Useless information, garnered decades ago, stays put.

We also learned the hard way about the pitfalls of all these ‘old’ vibrato systems when they were the latest new technology and would solve the problems of Fender’s original design…

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Kahler Locking Trem Help Needed!

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