Clones

therose789 · October 2013

What are everyones thoughts surrounding clones of pedals?

Can they be just as good? not quite as good? Crap?

I was thinking about it recently when i was GASing for a Klon Centaur. There are a lot of 'Klones' on the market that are substantially cheaper than the real deal.

Some of the 'Klones' claim to be just as good as the real thing. What i don't understand is why is it that you can pay £300-£500 for a used Klon but you can pay a lot less for a clone. Do they use cheaper parts? Is it just hype that makes it expensive? There HAS to be something in it!

There are a load of pedals that are being cloned for cheaper than the originals, whats the crack?!?!

monquixote · October 2013

Clones can be as good (or better) than the originals in terms of build quality although many of the cheapy chinese ones are not all that well made.

The Klon is expensive due to scarcity and the way it's made. It it was made by Boss it would probably be £70.

EricTheWeary · October 2013

presumably if you are a small maker developing a new pedal you also want to get your R and D costs back. For a cloner there are no such costs ( or minimal anyway) and for larger manufacturers those costs can be spread between a much larger volume of sales.

randomhandclaps · October 2013

In the case of a lot of small makers they can only fund their R and D and transition to production via pushing out clones. It's what the likes of Brian Wampler did.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2013

The main one sporky told me about was a dedicated pedal maker (IE primary business/source of income/bringing home the bacon) vs a hobby builder with a few hours spare over the weekend to churn out a couple.

Both pedals could well be as good as each other, but while one will be 175 quid, the other is only 50 quid. The fact that one fellow just does it for fun and a bit of extra pocket money subsidises the cost massively versus someone who makes them for a living.

I'm not convinced it's a great way to make a living, in all honesty, as there are so many builders out there and a pedal for just about everything. Might be wrong though - some manage it.

Pretty much the same story with amps - every 'booteek' amp is normally a classic circuit with one or two minor mods (typically attenuation) - JTM45, Tweed Deluxe, Champ, Bassman...

You don't see many boutique people doing unique, new circuits that have multiple channels, loops and higher amounts of gain because it costs a fortune in R+D compared to copying an original but installing a few mods to improve reliability or add a little functionality. For someone to come up with a unique, 3 channel amp with clean crunch and lead channels with a genuinely unique voice would take LOADS of r+d, prototypes, PCB manufacture (which would be cheaper offshore in bulk)... It's impossible.

I don't have a problem with far eastern clones - the parts are inferior, with switches and jacks typically being failure points, but it's a great way for the younger generations like me to get boutique quality sounds (and a lot of them are definitely boutique quality in sound). But when a new circuit comes up (eg Klon) and someone else copies it direct, but charges 1/4 the price because he has a day job, something isn't right.

Lew · October 2013

For the same reasons that eating out will cost more than your weeks shopping budget.

therose789 · October 2013

So generally speaking there is no difference?

If that is the case, why do people pay a ton more for these pedals? It cant just be based on brand?

Sporky · October 2013

therose789 said:

So generally speaking there is no difference?

I don't think that's what people have been saying. In some cases the clones are appallingly made by people with little or no understanding of the electronics involved. They are just following a design by someone else on a PCB by someone else, and in the worst cases are buying the cheapest components with the "right" values without consideration for whether there's more to it than that.

In other cases some clones aren't just copies; they may have tweaked the original design a bit, either to adjust the sound or to fix issues.

There isn't a single answer.

If that is the case, why do people pay a ton more for these pedals? It cant just be based on brand?

Again, there are many reasons.

The resale value of the original may be better.

The build quality (and thus reliability) may be better.

They may feel that it's right to reward the person who came up with the design (assuming it's at least vaguely innovative).

They may just like the colour of the original more than the clone.

The aftersales support may be better - if you're only making a tenner on each pedal you knock out in the evenings or at weekends you have almost no margin to cover repairs and returns (given that Special Delivery back to the customer will cost almost that much).

On the flip side, the clone (if it's from a big company) may be lower in cost, better made, have better back-up, no waiting list... there are so many possibilities in each direction that it just isn't possible to make useful generalisations.

therose789 · October 2013

Thanks @sporky that puts it in a great way!

Does anyone know of a good Klone or just a good transparent OD?

not_the_dj · October 2013

therose789 said:

Thanks @sporky that puts it in a great way!

Does anyone know of a good Klone or just a good transparent OD?

I've not tried one myself, but a few people on here like the Fredric Golden Eagle Klone (IIRC that was what @stickyfiddle got?)

stickyfiddle · October 2013

Yup, I have a Fredric Eagle, and while I haven't played through a real Klon personally it certainly sounds right and is an excellent OD pedal in its own right. There's a couple of the Zombie (sidewys version of the same pedal) in the classifieds ATM iirc. That Klone is the only clone I own that I didn't build myself. I generally try and buy the proper thing when I can and its not unreasonable costwise. That said,often a clone can also offer the original circuit with extra switchable options- clipping, mid boost, etc. that would tip the boat for me (though these days I'm happier to build it and add the options myself)

Sporky · October 2013

Personally I think there's also a difference between clones.

The stuff that's sold as "this is the best [insert renowned boutique pedal] clone!" strikes me as lazy and morally questionable - they're using the brand value of the original to sell knock-offs.

The stuff that's based on a classic design but with some tweaks is rather different. The Timmy, the OCD, the Zendrive and so on - that strikes me as OK; they're not using anyone else's work to sell their pedal.

The stuff that's a straight clone but pretends not to be - I'm just not sure about these. On the one hand if they're claiming great innovation but it's [insert renowned boutique pedal] with one value changed then, again, that's lazy. But there are only so many ways to mangle a signal.

I often find myself, on this subject, in possession of opinions stronger than I can actually justify, so I'm trying to be as fair as I can.

stickyfiddle · October 2013

Sporky said:

The stuff that's a straight clone but pretends not to be - I'm just not sure about these. On the one hand if they're claiming great innovation but it's [insert renowned boutique pedal] with one value changed then, again, that's lazy. But there are only so many ways to mangle a signal.

I often find myself, on this subject, in possession of opinions stronger than I can actually justify, so I'm trying to be as fair as I can.

I think what your saying, if i understand the subtext, is that Vermuram are a bunch of dickholes?

Dave_Mc · October 2013

I pretty much agree with Sporky. Saved me from making a massive post

In addition to what Sporky wrote, my own feeling on it (which is liable to change at any time) is, if it's bringing something new to the market, it's ok. "Something new to the market" can be a number of things. So if it's a tweaked clone which fixes "flaws" with the original design, that's ok. Even if it's debatable if they're actually flaws, if some people would prefer it, fair enough. If it's at a cheaper price, that's ok, too, because normally that goes hand in hand with lesser build quality and it's probably not stealing many customers who'd have bought the original. If it's something that's not currently available, or which has a contrived massive waiting list for no good reason, then that's ok too.

I don't like people who pretend they've reinvented the wheel when it's a straight clone, or very lightly modified clone, though. Especially if it's super-expensive. That's shady, IMO.

I also don't see the point in a straight clone with roughly the same level of build quality at roughly the same price. Kind of pointless.

All of that is my opinion, obviously.

juansolo · October 2013

It's all been said really. What I will add is that the original Centaur came in a rather fabulous enclosure that must have cost a bloody fortune to have done. In that respect the £300 or so he was asking for them was pretty damned reasonable. Not so much the KTR that's in a boggo 1590BB, powder coated red with some lame drivel printed on it.

Otherwise, the other reason Klones are cheap is because a lot of the cloners do it for capacitor money and make the sum total of bugger all (in real terms) for making them.

monquixote · October 2013

therose789 said:

Thanks @sporky that puts it in a great way!

Does anyone know of a good Klone or just a good transparent OD?

Any of Frederick FX, Juansolo, or Handsomerick of this forum should be able to make you something.

EdGrip · October 2013

OP:

"Can clones be just as good? Original hyped-up pedals are so much more expensive than clones made by some bloke I haven't heard of, so there must be some reason for that?"

Well, there is. The originals are hyped up, which causes prices to rise, but the clones are usually made by some bloke you haven't heard of. Assuming that the same component values are used and the pedal is built to a good standard, the clone will be every bit as good as the original. (Often - in cases where the orignal was a production-line item - the clone is better built than the original.)

The likelihood is that you'll lose some money if you ever come to sell a clone, but probably not if you come to sell an original (assuming that The Internet - which is definitely right about everything, remember - hasn't changed its mind about the pedal in the meantime. If you're smart, you'll keep checking The Internet to make sure your pedal is still good - sometimes a mistake gets made and it will turn out that your pedal isn't good after all, in which case you'll need to stop enjoying it and sell it as fast as possible.)

dindude · October 2013

I've no problem with buying something like a Klon clone, because, not sure if anyone else has checked, YOU CANT FVCKING BUY THE ORIGINAL ITEM ANYWHERE. It's just a pedal and if the original maker can't be arsed to make enough to go around then tough titties.

I struggle a bit more with the Joyo type rip-offs, but still have partook on occasions on the basis that it's a low cost way to try that style of pedal and if it's a keeper then I would likely invest in the original.

Sporky · October 2013

dindude said:

I've no problem with buying something like a Klon clone, because, not sure if anyone else has checked, YOU CANT FVCKING BUY THE ORIGINAL ITEM ANYWHERE.

I thought there was a new Klon out, just in a different box?

It's just a pedal and if the original maker can't be arsed to make enough to go around then tough titties.

I don't think that's fair. There's a limit to how fast pedals can be made, and taking on more staff isn't as easy a solution as it might sound.

It's worth pointing out that there are very few rich boutique pedal makers.

ToneControl · October 2013

I thought he stopped making Klons for a long while. If you're selling something in demand that cannot be patented, and do not make very many, you have to live with the risk that people will make their own, or worse - someone else will mass-manufacture them. I think the Zen drive guy has taken the right step - team up with a bigger firm.

Anyway my klone is a madbean sun king PCB one, I think it's excellent for adding a little grit and sharpness - I run the gain at 8 oclock, My Zendrive 2 sounds much nicer with any higher gain though.

Nice to see folks here accept that a clone could sound as good or better than the original, there's usually so much voodoo snake oil around - "no one today can build a guitar or amp as well as a guy did by hand in 1950-something", etc. Yet strangely we all know that a bassman is not better than a JTM45, an AC30 is not better than a DC30. There's some amount of recognition/hype needed before an "influenced by" product gains full legitimacy. Look at all the fender-amp-derivative makers, very brands succeed (e.g. Victoria)

Sporky · October 2013

ToneControl said:

I thought he stopped making Klons for a long while.

I'd forgotten that - fair point.

Nice to see folks here accept that a clone could sound as good or better than the original, there's usually so much voodoo snake oil around - "no one today can build a guitar or amp as well as a guy did by hand in 1950-something", etc.

I think part of that comes from the good ones surviving, and the crap ones being binned.

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