University tuition fees.

Hertz32 · May 2015

@Drew_FX now that is interesting... That's the complete polar opposite of everything I have ever been taught by my parents or my school. Both of which insist upon the importance of getting good grades and going to a Russel-group university.

chrispy108 · May 2015

Yeah, when they're talking generically for a 'traditional' career that's sensible advice, but it obviously isn't true for every career or every person.

Get researching and talking to people in jobs you want.

randomhandclaps · May 2015

Hertz32 said:

It's between creative music technology at Falmouth or Sussex, or Primary school education in a scottish university.

The first one seems the better choice. If you went for latter it's highly likely Nicola Sturgeon would have you marched back to the border at gunpoint shortly before you start the second year, once Cameron repays the favour and gives her 'Referendum Take 2'.

Hertz32 · May 2015

@randomhandclaps From what my Scottish mother and her family have told me, they currently love English students. As they are the only ones that pay the £9k fees. Everyone else goes free! I have been wondering what would happen if a 2nd referendum did happen though. Would I then be an international student? At which point I would go to university for free in Scotland.

chrispy108 said:

Get researching and talking to people in jobs you want.

To a certain extent, that's what I'm doing now. I've already talked to Dalefty about his job in the music industry via PM, and Drew is giving me valuable insight into the industry too.

Drew_TNBD · May 2015

Hertz32 said:

@Drew_FX now that is interesting... That's the complete polar opposite of everything I have ever been taught by my parents or my school. Both of which insist upon the importance of getting good grades and going to a Russel-group university.

The problem is that going to university doesn't really teach you anything that is applicable to the day to day operations. Sure, you can do a Sonic Arts degree for example, like I did. You can learn lots of interesting things about serialism and Stockhausen, and you can memorize factoids and write essays on Pierre Schaefer like I had to do. But that doesn't do anything for you in terms of critical thinking and the ability to work outside the box.

Look: I'm the QA manager right... but I'm also the guy who helps design workflow and I throw in my 2pence when it comes to feature set and user experience. I help guide the design process from the beginning to the end. And after we release a product, I'm the guy who has to help our users from a support angle. And I'm the guy who gives our support team technical information to help them do their job.

But university didn't teach me any of that. Exposure and experience did. I didn't start at my company knowing how to do any of this. But the reason I now do, is because I made the effort to become knowledgeable along these fronts. It would've been easy for me, as an intern back in 2008 (I finished university in 2007 and had my job the following January) to just sit there and run systems and unit tests and tick boxes.

But that wouldn't have made me valuable to the company, and it wouldn't have aided my personal growth. To me, it's all about being a switched on individual, and not a walking documentation of academic achievements.

I've got GCSE's, sure. I got C's in English Language and Lit. I got D's, E's, and F's in everything else. I don't have any A-Levels at all. I've got a 2:2 in BA Sonic Arts from Middlesex University. I should basically be working at MacDonalds.

But a bit of luck and determination, and I'm the QA Manager for a music software company, managing a team of three people.

Lately I've been recording lots and lots of drums. Again, that wasn't handed to me because of academic achievement. I just went and took it. One day I and a workmate wanted to record our own expansion pack for our drum software. We just went and did it, over a weekend. We didn't wait for permission. Then it got turned into a product.

This week, I've been in our studio recording one-shots of drums, for another expansion pack. So anyway... back to my point...

If I'm looking for someone to join my QA team, I'm not interesting in their qualifications too much - provided they have *some* to a decent level. I'm interested in a few things - what are they like as a person, can they prove to me that they're able to follow instructions but can they also go outside the box and use our software in ways that are unintended, for the purposes of breaking it, so that we can get the developers to fix it! I want to know if they genuinely care about music software and ensuring quality.

Go to school, get good grades. Go to college, get good grades. Go to university, get good grades. Go to the job, get good appraisals. Rinse and repeat??

I guess it depends what your motivations are - is it money? Do you want to be rolling in it and retire by the time you're 45? Do you want to give back to the world and help people less fortunate? Do you want to serve your own ego and passions, and chase your dreams? Do you want to help mould young minds into the next generation?

I dunno... guess I don't have an overarching point really. But depending on what you want to do, I wouldn't put all of the emphasis on academia.

For me it is important to have a wide variety of things to do. Because I get restless and distracted very easily, and I get depressed very easily. So I need to be active. I cannot - WILL NOT - sit in a cubicle and be a good little drone provider family man. FUCK. THAT. I'd rather hear the death rattle of my only child.

Drew_TNBD · May 2015

And you can tell when I'm having a shit day, because I'm posting on here a lot more. Like today. Godamnit I hate weekends

John_P · May 2015

I think you need to pause and think about what career you would really like to get into. If I read correctly you're thinking about some for of music tech, primary teaching or secondary Biology.

If you want to get into primary then it's quite competitive and you will need a ton of work experience to help with the application, so as soon as you can you need to start volunteering. I don't know about your school but I've organised this for a lot of of students in the past so you're teachers/head of 6th form should help. I'm not up to speed on the current jobs market but having extra's to offer - like science skills would be helpful.

The music tech courses don't tend to have a such a clear career progression as experience counts more than the relevant degree and unless you're very lucky the pay isn't great - just like gigging plenty of people can pick up the skills along the way and are willing to do it cheap.

Secondary Biology might be harder with your current subjects - depending on the course - I've mentored tons of pgce students and not so my BEd but it's doable. Teaching is hard on young graduates though - if you are determined then it's a great job but the drop out rate for younger trainee teachers if huge. I started at 28, it was a lot easier job then I'm sure I'd have been a disaster if I tried to do when I was under 25.

The best way forward is to find a balance of studying a course you find interesting that has links to a career path you would love and if you having doubts then keeping options open by studying a degree you can follow up with a more vocational post grad course would make sense, e.g. a biology related degree that you could do music tech in your spare time (part time job?) and then a primary or secondary pgce if you are still interested in teaching. Keep in mind that the careers you fancy now might be very different to how you feel at 21.

If you want any specific advise about ucas etc feel free to pm me.

Hertz32 · May 2015

With regards to showing a keen real world interest in music tech, outside of pure academia would running a music youtube channel be of any worth? Potentially having a digital youtube portfolio of covers and other stuff that I have done might come in useful perhaps?

I'm selling my current head in favor of an AMT Stonehead. With a NUX MIDI/TRS converter box I could link a POD HD500 I have on loan to the channel switching of the AMT. Meaning I could set up the effects patches I want on the POD, and use MIDI to change the amp channel at the same time as the effects preset.
Would that be the kind of thing you would be looking for in a candidate @Drew_FX ? A willingness and ability to try and do new things with tech?

Drew_TNBD · May 2015

Certainly, yes.

Essentially anything that proves you live, breath, sleep, and die music and music tech, will help.

Many many many jobs in music tech are not well paid, and the whole industry works on a labour of love basis much of the time. It sucks a bit, but it is what it is. We're generally happier than the bankers and office drones are.

Heartfeltdawn · May 2015

Hertz32 said:

Cameron promises to create 3 million new apprenticeships for young learners, these apprenticeships either don't pay, or pay £2 an hour odd. He's hiding unemployment AGAIN.

Apprenticeships and unpaid internships are different things. Tools to hide unemployment? That's very debatable. I've seen a lot of chefs start as apprentices who made their way into head chef land and salary. Yes, a low wage and hard working conditions but they'd tell you how much they learnt. Many of them would also tell you that they were never academic people, not people who would go to university. They took an apprenticeship as their form of study. They accepted the hard work and low pay for a year or two before moving up. Those apprenticeships are their route to a better paid job. I'd also bet they work a damn sight harder than the majority of university students.

I think it's bonkers that you're thinking of doing primary education because your mama said so. What do you want to do? Really you are everything that is wrong about the push to go to university. You don't know what you want to do, you don't seem to have done much research, yet you're completely fine going to university, cranking up £30k in debt which you won't pay anyway leaving a hole in the country's finances...

No logical career progression from your current studies - then find out what you do want to do and then plan it. If that means waiting to go to university, then do that.

Drew_TNBD · May 2015

^ I didn't want to put it that harshly, but spot on.

monquixote · May 2015

I went to university in the first generation that paid fees (1999) so I got off relatively lucky with £3k of fees and about £12k or student loan. I've had a decent job from the moment I left university and It took me 14 years to pay it off so on balance it's been worth it, but my wife did an art degree and she'll probably never pay hers back and having the degree has actually hindered rather than helped her at times.

With the tuition fees today I'd think very seriously before doing a degree and make sure it was one that would offer an extremely good return on investment (Engineering, Comp Sci, Medicine, Law, etc). When I was at uni there were stacks of people doing Media Studies and Sociology degrees because they thought it was a doss and meant they could ignore the real world for a few more years.

For most jobs within the music industry I wouldn't bother doing a music tech degree you are just going to limit yourself and the same applies for games degrees etc. You would be at a disadvantage to someone who had just done a straight up technical degree like comp sci and worked on related projects.

If you aren't actually going to work on the technical nuts and bolts of music tech then it's probably better that you don't bother with a degree at all, just try and get related experience.

Also if you have your heart set on something do it now. You don't get taught anything at university you are just given an environment in which you can learn if you choose to. I've interviewed dozens of people who have got first class comp sci degrees and can't write a program to add up a list of numbers.

I should imagine if you wanted a job with Drew's lot (for example) then rolling up with a really decent VST that you'd written yourself would probably put you streets ahead of someone with a degree in anything from anywhere.

I'm in broadcasting tech rather than music tech, but I'm sure it's similar.

Companies vary in how much they balance academics against other achievements, but I had an unconditional job offer (i.e. I didn't even have to pass my degree) from the BBC because of the TV and Radio work I'd done while I was at university.

When I interview I focus almost entirely on real programming exercises and my favorite interview question is "what technical projects have you done outside of work or accademia".

mellowsun · May 2015

Tuition fees are indefensible. That they were brought in by Labour politicians who themselves had benefitted from free university education is unforgivable.

On top of rising rents and unaffordable house prices, it's a nightmare for young people.

It's part of the boomers' plan of pulling up the ladder behind them.

Heartfeltdawn · May 2015

Drew_fx said:
Many many many jobs in music tech are not well paid, and the whole industry works on a labour of love basis much of the time. It sucks a bit, but it is what it is. We're generally happier than the bankers and office drones are.

Liar. Everyone knows people in the arts and the tech world are teetering on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Or maybe that's just me.

Drew_fx said:

^ I didn't want to put it that harshly, but spot on.

You're mellowing

@Hertz_32 I hope I wasn't that harsh. Going to university is not the be all and end all. Indeed, for some people it is the wrong option. I regret very little in my life but I regret the three years I spent at uni. I don't like things written about 'but you won't have to pay the fees back'. Someone does pay. Just wait and see what gets said when the government sells of the 2000-2012 income contingent student loans to private companies...

Drew_TNBD · May 2015

monquixote said:

I should imagine if you wanted a job with Drew's lot (for example) then rolling up with a really decent VST that you'd written yourself would probably put you streets ahead of someone with a degree in anything from anywhere.

If you wanted to code, you'd have to roll up with either relevant industry experience, or at least 3 years of self guided coding work with something close to a finished product at the end of it. Our CEO has been coding since he was a kid, and he started the company in his flat, around 12 years ago or so iirc.

Basically, to me... no matter which way you scratch it, if you want a non-standard career, you've gotta be prepared to live on beans on toast for a good decade of your life.

University taught me how to drink. That's about it.

chrispy108 · May 2015

I had a great time at Uni, I got an internship during my second year I wouldn't have found out about otherwise which lead to a 8 year career. If I hadn't finished my degree I wouldn't have been able to start my second career as quickly, so it was a great backup.

Uni can be great, it can be a waste of time as they've guys have said. It's expensive, but if it gets you the career you want it is well worth it.

Please go and speak to a proper careers adviser, there are some fantastic people out their helping young people make good decisions.

musicegbdf · May 2015

Some good advice on here.
Daughter no 1 got her degree and is now a primary teacher. Worked for her as that was her ambition.

Daughter 2 is a singer/songwriter . I had to pay for full time arts education. It set her up for her ambition and I have the debt

Daughter 3 going to uni in Sept.
She was really not sure, and mrs m was giving her real hassle to go. I told her not to go unless she really wanted to learn, and if not sure to take a year out. It helped her not to panic and be pressured to go, and she made her own mind up.

It is your life and your debt, so be sure.

I have a simple rule for my kids. If they are serious and want to follow their dream I will support them 100%, whatever it is. I am in a fair amount of debt doing that, but being equity well off , I do not care as I will not leave the kids any debt.

guitarfishbay · May 2015

I'll be honest - unless you bust your balls and make contacts I don't see the value in a music degree if you want to play guitar or do music tech stuff (which I assume means recording, mixing, editing, live sound etc, not learning broader software development/IT). You can totally hit that level of knowledge and proficiency in your spare time if you've got the obsession - and if you don't have the obsession music probably isn't the right choice career wise.

What you get with a degree is protected time to do it and access to some cool gear you probably wouldn't be able to afford for a long time. I appreciate that.

But I'd suggest thinking critically about it for your own sake - not the money, you can borrow that, the time. Time is the most valuable thing in your life. Find out what it is you want to do then focus on it and work hard. A mate of mine runs a filming company, and when someone said how lucky he was to do what he loves for a living he said 'it definitely hasn't been down to luck.'

chrispy108 · May 2015

Great post fish, It's time, and the fact that you only get funding/loan for four years of study, so realisticaly most people only get one shot at it.

hugbot · May 2015

I think the whole shuffling straight into uni from school is wrong, most people should enter the working world for at least a little bit then go (even if the only thing you learn is how shit it is looking for work, inspiring you to work your balls off at uni).

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