Wood affects tone (Anderton's video content)

guitarfishbay · November 2013

The problem is that doing countless A/B testing takes up lots of time.

It depends on what your goals are.

If you are made happy by having a pure quest for tone, go for it. Everything does make a difference and there is a lot of pleasure to be had playing and owning lots of different gear.

If you want to perform and write music I think there is worthwhile knowledge in understanding as much about music as you can. Not just guitar gear but things about the instruments your bandmates play with too. And beyond that - what the soundman does live and why, and what the producer does in the studio.

Knowing more can help you develop more as a musician.

But I think the wisdom comes from putting that knowledge into content creation and/or performance. At this point gear selection is tool selection. Unless you can afford one of everything you're best of buying the best choices for what you mostly need 9/10 of the time, and using knowledge and what you have to achieve the rest as best you can.

Maybe the obsessiveness can't be separated from the creativity though. I lose sleep to worrying about guitar gear all the time. Not even a joke, I stayed up late recently after finding a crazy deal on something I'd really like to own, but know full well I don't like as much as something else I already do own. It was cheap for what it was but it wasn't 'cheap' and also it wasn't part of the gear 'Roadmap'. Not buying it was pretty difficult.

I wish I could just focus on making music instead of having 'what if' tone anxiety. I don't think obsessing over the 'what ifs' is healthy. I want my gear to work for me, not to work for the gear.

koneguitarist · November 2013

randomhandclaps said:

koneguitarist said:

If someone had said whats it made of, I would have thought Wood, not Mahogany or ash or alder etc, but just wood.

We had a builder in with that attitude and he was shit.

Why because I cannot tell what species of wood a guitar body may or may not be made of ?

then prove you can tell the difference ? I have had all the classic guitars vintage and modern and after 35 years of gigging I can tell guitars apart but not what they are made of. And I doubt very much neither can you, care to prove me wrong ?

koneguitarist · November 2013

Trouble is on most forums like this you have a few honest guys, and some guys who think they know the difference between two species of wood by sound in a badly made video. I defy anyone to try a blindfold test using different guitars to say what models they are and what wood the body is made from.

ThePrettyDamned · November 2013

ICBM;88077" said:
georgenadaintl said:

Pickups and the parts that come into contact w/ strings - bridge, frets, nut, tuners, etc. Woods, no. Not even fretboard woods.

As long as the body is stable enough to wrap under tension it's all the same. All else is hardware.

lol

I honestly don't know if you're having a laugh, trolling, being deliberately challenging in order to get someone to prove you wrong, or you're just deaf.

You're seriously saying that two guitars which are completely different in construction - eg an SG and a 335 - but which use the same pickups and other hardware (which they do) sound the same?

If you are, it should take someone who owns both these guitars and can record a clip about two minutes to prove you wrong. (I don't.)

Unfortunately I sold my PRS Custom, or I could easily demonstrate that two guitars which are identical apart from half the body wood sound noticeably different, even in a recording through a distorted amp and at Youtube (lack of) sound quality.

OP could literally just visit any music shop that stocks Gibson in the country?

I think people can overstate influence of woods and such. Example - maple makes things bright, but I always mention a Les Paul raw power I played that had a solid maple body, maple neck, maple board and was significantly warmer sounding (amplified or acoustic) than your average Les Paul. But you can generalise.

And as for saying all that matters is the string and pickup... Well, try a jazzmaster with proper jazzmaster bridge. You'll hear some overtones, bright, high pitched noises. That's from behind the bridge, thanks to the relatively shallow break angle. Mute that, and play it again - notice how different the amplified sound is. Some of that overtone gets into the main string - mute that part and strum behind the bridge if you don't believe me, but you won't like what you hear...

Point is, the way the strings vibrate ACOUSTICALLY must make a difference to the tone. Try picking with fingertips then a pick - that doesn't change the note, nor the pickup, but even with identical volume, the tone will be different because the string moves in a different way. It's audible through an amp.

randomhandclaps · November 2013

koneguitarist said:

randomhandclaps said:

koneguitarist said:

If someone had said whats it made of, I would have thought Wood, not Mahogany or ash or alder etc, but just wood.

We had a builder in with that attitude and he was shit.

Why because I cannot tell what species of wood a guitar body may or may not be made of ?
then prove you can tell the difference ? I have had all the classic guitars vintage and modern and after 35 years of gigging I can tell guitars apart but not what they are made of. And I doubt very much neither can you, care to prove me wrong ?

Obviously I was joking, but saying you can't tell which wood a guitar is made from by hearing it is not the same as saying the wood (or more the point I believe in body style) doesn't effect the sound. When you walk in to a room and smell a fart you can't tell who did it but that's not the same as saying every person in the room's fart smell the same.

Megii · November 2013

ThePrettyDamned said:

Point is, the way the strings vibrate ACOUSTICALLY must make a difference to the tone. Try picking with fingertips then a pick - that doesn't change the note, nor the pickup, but even with identical volume, the tone will be different because the string moves in a different way. It's audible through an amp.

This is what I believe as well - took me a while to come to this conclusion. But as an owner of a jazz archtop, I can really here a big tone difference with that one - there is a distinctive woody "acoustic" quality to the tone that I just can't get from a solid guitar. My own question was how can that be, when the guitar is using a magnetic pickup, and no piezos or anything? What I concluded is that the hollow archtop construction actually causes the strings to vibrate in a different way, and that difference can be heard, however the string motion is amplified electronically. It follows that even in solid body guitars, if different types of wood give differences in the acoustic tone, that there are again going to be differences in how the strings vibrate, which will be transferred to the amplified tone, even if such variations are more subtle.

ICBM · November 2013

Megii said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Point is, the way the strings vibrate ACOUSTICALLY must make a difference to the tone. Try picking with fingertips then a pick - that doesn't change the note, nor the pickup, but even with identical volume, the tone will be different because the string moves in a different way. It's audible through an amp.

This is what I believe as well - took me a while to come to this conclusion. But as an owner of a jazz archtop, I can really here a big tone difference with that one - there is a distinctive woody "acoustic" quality to the tone that I just can't get from a solid guitar. My own question was how can that be, when the guitar is using a magnetic pickup, and no piezos or anything? What I concluded is that the hollow archtop construction actually causes the strings to vibrate in a different way, and that difference can be heard, however the string motion is amplified electronically. It follows that even in solid body guitars, if different types of wood give differences in the acoustic tone, that there are again going to be differences in how the strings vibrate, which will be transferred to the amplified tone, even if such variations are more subtle.

Exactly. The strings are resting on the bridge which is also vibrating, because the body is - which changes the way the string vibrates. Hence the body resonance gets back into the string movement and then into the pickup - which is also mounted on the wood and so is actually vibrating relative to the string as well, although by a smaller amount. The pickup and the string aren't operating in isolation. The neck is also resonating and affects the string vibration and hence the tone. It's really not rocket science.

octatonic · November 2013

Your mum affects my wood tone.

OilCityPickups · November 2013

Good wood gives me tone ... good tone gives me wood ...
Win win

koneguitarist · November 2013

Type and quality of wood is not as important as whether or not it resonates with the neck well. There was 7 tele's in Cardiff sound centre when I bought my first tele back in 81-82. My old man made me play each one acoustically before plugging in, best advice I ever had. Resonance is the key not the quality or species of wood.

p90fool · November 2013

randomhandclaps said:

When you walk in to a room and smell a fart you can't tell who did it but that's not the same as saying every person in the room's fart smell the same.

Lol, this is the beginning and end of it to me, have a wisdom

koneguitarist · November 2013

tele`s

Name the guitar, 3 guitars which is the tele ?

X_X

Jaden · November 2013

this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved.
if you had a group of guitar makers in a bar, it would be a very different conversation to a group of players in a bar discussing the same thing...
make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more...............
think again.

koneguitarist · November 2013

No cheating ! [-X

randomhandclaps · November 2013

Jaden said:

this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved.
if you had a group of guitar makers in a bar, it would be a very different conversation to a group of players in a bar discussing the same thing...
make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more...............
think again.

So guys who just spend their time actually playing guitars don't know shit? Surely it's the playing of the instrument which reveals the results? What's bizarre about that angle is most material fads aren't pushed by builders, they are pushed by mega-rich famous players saying 'I wouldn't play anything that wasn't Brazilian Rosewood.' etc.

digitalscream · November 2013

randomhandclaps said:

Jaden said:

this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved.
if you had a group of guitar makers in a bar, it would be a very different conversation to a group of players in a bar discussing the same thing...
make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more...............
think again.

So guys who just spend their time actually playing guitars don't know shit? Surely it's the playing of the instrument which reveals the results? What's bizarre about that angle is most material fads aren't pushed by builders, they are pushed by mega-rich famous players saying 'I wouldn't play anything that wasn't Brazilian Rosewood.' etc.

Picture this: ICBM, ecc83, martinw and jpfamps are having a discussion about a particular circuit design feature makes a difference to the functioning of an amp, all of them having seen many, many amps cross their benches both with and without it. They've also experimented with variations on said feature.

You, as a guitarist, have used one or two amps with and without it.

Who would you think has more knowledge and experience on the subject?

EDIT: I personally would trust the experience of somebody who's experimented with said feature. Similarly, I'd trust the experience of somebody who's built guitars with different woods, replaced body woods, fretboards etc to work out the differences and similarities, especially if they can demonstrate those differences to me.

randomhandclaps · November 2013

Yes but builders (whether guitars or amps etc) build for and to a market. If they understood some special formula of what made great tone they would be rich just selling the concept. Still though players develop (rightly or wrongly) favouritism for particular materials, shapes and designs. Very few of those rich and famous guitarists who could have anything made to 'the ultimate spec' do so. Instead they try a multitude of instruments and bond with the one with which the sum of all the parts works for them.

I understand the point your are making but I don't feel the above example really works in a practical world, or is comparable to the original question. There is no argument about the effect of different circuits amps. The guys mentioned above may work on hundreds of amps each year. The don't take each one of a gig with it. The don't take each one in to a recording session. It would be the equivalent of saying that a mechanic's word would hold ultimate sway over your choice of car rather than your own experience and other feedback.

Take ICBM as an example. A phenomenal knowledge of all things amp like. What does he own? Mesa Trem-O-Verb (OK ICBM, it's two I know). Is that because he has worked on so many amps and he believe it uses the ultimate materials? No, it's because that's what works for him. Guys don't post on here saying "ICBM, tell me what amp to buy?". They go and try them and look for feedback from others.

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with Jaden's viewpoint - in fact he didn't state one. I agree with the point "this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved", but I do find the statement "make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more..............." as being the only way to understand guitars bizarre. The truth is there are guys on here who have plenty of time behind the steering wheel and fully grasp the concept of what difference changes make to performance and handling.

With anything as subjective as tone the only person whose experience you can trust is your own.

koneguitarist · November 2013

Jaden said:

this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved.
if you had a group of guitar makers in a bar, it would be a very different conversation to a group of players in a bar discussing the same thing...
make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more...............
think again.

Leo Fender made 1,000s does that make him know more? he couldn`t actually play !

And even when he got it right he still kept changing the woods... Why ? because they were cheaper.

koneguitarist · November 2013

Still waiting to see who can say which guitar is the telecaster, could be 1.2.3 or all of them or one of them !

Jaden · November 2013

randomhandclaps said:

Yes but builders (whether guitars or amps etc) build for and to a market. If they understood some special formula of what made great tone they would be rich just selling the concept. Still though players develop (rightly or wrongly) favouritism for particular materials, shapes and designs. Very few of those rich and famous guitarists who could have anything made to 'the ultimate spec' do so. Instead they try a multitude of instruments and bond with the one with which the sum of all the parts works for them.
I understand the point your are making but I don't feel the above example really works in a practical world, or is comparable to the original question. There is no argument about the effect of different circuits amps. The guys mentioned above may work on hundreds of amps each year. The don't take each one of a gig with it. The don't take each one in to a recording session. It would be the equivalent of saying that a mechanic's word would hold ultimate sway over your choice of car rather than your own experience and other feedback.
Take ICBM as an example. A phenomenal knowledge of all things amp like. What does he own? Mesa Trem-O-Verb (OK ICBM, it's two I know). Is that because he has worked on so many amps and he believe it uses the ultimate materials? No, it's because that's what works for him. Guys don't post on here saying "ICBM, tell me what amp to buy?". They go and try them and look for feedback from others.
I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with Jaden's viewpoint - in fact he didn't state one. I agree with the point "this is an idiotic argument that will never be resolved", but I do find the statement "make a couple of hundred guitars before you decide your final position in this argument... then when you have made a couple of hundred more..............." as being the only way to understand guitars bizarre. The truth is there are guys on here who have plenty of time behind the steering wheel and fully grasp the concept of what difference changes make to performance and handling.
With anything as subjective as tone the only person whose experience you can trust is your own.

yea I should have expanded that guitar making thing in more detail but I didnt.
I have made many identical guitars and then applied different finishes / pickups / etc etc...
then I have made a near identical guitar and changed the fingerboard, or body, or top etc etc..
then I took the time to test them all in a very very quiet room, usually around midnight, acoustically and electrically.

this kind of process does give you more of an insight than an average player gets..

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Wood affects tone (Anderton's video content)

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