Strings and Intonation

crunchman

Does anyone get problems with particular brands of strings having intonation problems?

I've been using Newtone for a year two after some recommendations on the old MR forum and they do sound good, and it's good to support a British maker, but I recently had a D string that was way off on intonation.  I was wondering if other people had had similar issues, or whether it's just a one off.

I'm tempted to go back to D'Addario, but if it's an isolated issue then I might stick with the Newtones.

There was a thread on another forum where someone was complaining about issues with intonation on another brand as well so this could be a wider issue than just one brand.  Are there strings that give consistently good intonation, or are there ones that people have regularly had problems with?  What is everyone's experience?

ICBM

I once came across a batch of DR acoustic strings where the As wouldn't intonate correctly. It put me off them for some years, but I eventually went back to them and haven't had any problems since.

Maxi

I think you kinda pay for consistancy when you buy strings but if you found one string that was off after 2 years then your not doing too badly ...I normally tweek my intonation with every restring if im recording or if one of my fussy muso mates is coming round

 

koneguitarist

mainly with EB or D`darrio, and again mainly an A or D string.

Phil_aka_Pip

Intonation is always out, regardless of string brand. My tech tells me to stop whingeing and just play it. But until equal temperament is the same as pythagorean tuning in all keys I'm going to keep whingeing. 

Skipped

Leslie West never worries about it too much.
I used to go to Mountain gigs and shout at him for 2 hours solid:

"Leslie!
It sounds Off!
You can't use a Plain G with a wrapover compensated for a wound string!
You can't do that!
Leslie! "

Fortunately no one could hear me above the roar of the audience......

mike_l

I don't have a problem. Using Dean Markley's. Unless they need changing, in which case it's nearly always the 3rd string which is out. Usually it's the tuning which goes first though.......

Fez

I haven't had any particular issues with any given string make. Sometimes the intonation just needs a tweak and more often on some guitars than others. It may be due to movement in the bridge and saddles as much as anything. Strings like anything else are made to a tolerance. Temperature and humidity could also be factors.

EricTheWeary

There was a thing in GP where some guitar tech to the stars was saying guitarists all have this belief now that we have to stretch strings to buggery ( damaging the string)and this causes intonation problems that are often attributed to the guitar or a duff packet of strings.

Emp_Fab

Earvana nuts solved all my intonation problems.

crunchman

The problem I had wasn't a minor thing that would be fixed by an Earvana nut.  The string that was off was probably about half a semitone out at the 12th fret.  When I restrung the guitar with a new set it was fine.  It was definitely a duff string.

It was more that kind of thing I was after.  Does this happen regularly with certain brands or was I just unlucky with that one?

I don't remember a string that bad in more than 20 years with D'Addario.

ICBM

Skipped said:

Leslie West never worries about it too much.
I used to go to Mountain gigs and shout at him for 2 hours solid:

"Leslie!
It sounds Off!
You can't use a Plain G with a wrapover compensated for a wound string!
You can't do that!
Leslie! "

Fortunately no one could hear me above the roar of the audience...…

Actually West's Juniors had an uncompensated plain stopbar - they were 50s models and the ones with the ridge designed for a wound G didn't come in until the 60s.

The odd thing is that the plain stopbars actually seem to intonate fine! Somehow the string seems to find its own sounding point on the curved surface and make itself in tune. Or at least they don't sound obviously horrible, no matter what strings you put on them… but using a plain G on the later ridged ones really can.

EricTheWeary said:

There was a thing in GP where some guitar tech to the stars was saying guitarists all have this belief now that we have to stretch strings to buggery ( damaging the string)and this causes intonation problems that are often attributed to the guitar or a duff packet of strings.

That's complete bollocks. A well-stretched string isn't damaged, it simply stays in tune properly - and intonates fine. In fact, most string 'stretching' isn't the string stretching at all, it's the wraps on the tuner post and the bends at the saddle etc tightening up and locking into place. When that stops, the string is 'stretched' and will then play perfectly. That's the whole point of it - if you don't do that, when you start to play and especially bend strings, it happens anyway and the string goes flat.

Emp_Fab said:

Earvana nuts solved all my intonation problems.

You can't say that any more, Ernie Ball will sue you .

Not necessary if a conventional nut is fitted and cut correctly, anyway. The nut offsets fix the problem of the strings being bent by slightly different amounts as you pull them down to the first fret - but that goes away by itself if the nut is cut properly low enough. The reason most people don't realise this is because very few nuts are ever cut really right.

Anyway, this is not what the question here is about, which is duff strings in a set which don't intonate properly because they have manufacturing faults. No amount of adjustment on the guitar will fix that, you just need a new string.

Rocker

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Intonation is always out, regardless of string brand. My tech tells me to stop whingeing and just play it. But until equal temperament is the same as pythagorean tuning in all keys I'm going to keep whingeing. 

Buzz Feiten Tuning System. Problem solved.

ChrisMusic

I am intrigued by what causes this.

I assume it is a slight variance in string gauge (thickness) along the length of the string.

Although I have to admit that I do not understand why the intonation goes out on older used strings.

If it is to do with variance along the string length, then that must be down to the consistency of the material itself and the consistency of tension in the manufacturing process (or however a string is extruded to a given gauge).

If that is the case I can certainly see how @EricTheWeary 's remarks about "guitarists all have this belief now that we have to stretch strings to buggery" would have the potential to exacerbate this problem.

If anyone has any information or expertise to answer any of this I would be very interested.

ICBM

Rocker said:

Buzz Feiten Tuning System. Problem solved.

Also unnecessary - or rather, most of it is. All you need is a guitar built and set up properly - ie with the nut set very slightly forward from the theoretical position (as Feiten rightly noticed, but other makers have been doing it for decades so it shouldn't have been patentable) and cut low enough.

You don't need the tuning offsets at all - in fact if the guitar is really set up right, all they will do is guarantee that it's out of tune by the same offsets at every fret position.

ChrisMusic

I was going to ask anyway, but is there an idiots guide to what exactly the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is?

Ta...

mart

ChrisMusic said:

I was going to ask anyway, but is there an idiots guide to what exactly the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is?

Ta...

http://www.edgeguitarservices.co.uk/scheitenballs/

ICBM

ChrisMusic said:

I was going to ask anyway, but is there an idiots guide to what exactly the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is?

Ta...

Mart beat me to it .

Briefly, there are two parts - the forward-positioned nut (or shelf nut, if the guitar is modified rather than being built like that)… this is necessary because a string vibrating in a nut groove is not perfectly flexible at the 'take-off' point and plays slightly flat - you fix that by moving the nut forward relative to the first fret to sharpen it back to the correct pitch. This bit *is* correct - but Hamer, PRS and others have been doing this since the 1970s so Feiten should not be given credit for it, let alone a patent.

Then there are the tuning offsets, which are supposed to make the guitar sound more in tune. Actually if the nut is fitted correctly and cut to the right height, and the bridge is adjusted correctly, every fret will play in tune anyway, so all you do by offsetting the open-string tuning is make it out of tune by those amounts all the way up the neck. If Feiten was right, why are the offsets all in exact whole numbers of cents? Physics doesn't work like that.

(There's more in the link mart posted.)

ChrisMusic said:

I am intrigued by what causes this.

I assume it is a slight variance in string gauge (thickness) along the length of the string.

I think it's cause by either the core being kinked somewhere under the winding where you can't see it, or inconsistent tension in the winding so it's looser or tighter in some places. All the duff strings I've ever come across have been wound - although you sometimes find plain strings with big spots of rust on them, which would probably not intonate properly if you actually fitted them.

ChrisMusic said:

Although I have to admit that I do not understand why the intonation goes out on older used strings.

Because the string gets kinked or dented where the frets press into it, mostly. Also if dirt and corrosion gets onto the surface (which changes the mass at that point) or into the windings.

ChrisMusic said:

If anyone has any information or expertise to answer any of this I would be very interested.

I'm sure there are others here with the same sort of experience, but I've restrung and set up literally thousands of guitars - every one, I have stretched the strings in thoroughly (you don't want the customer to play it and have it go out of tune, they will think you haven't done it right), and never found things like compensated nuts or patent tuning offsets necessary.

If you know what you're doing you can set up a plain old standard guitar - assuming it's built right - so it plays and stays in tune as well as is theoretically possible for an instrument in equal temperament - which I know is not 'perfect' and some people still find that an issue, and some do like tuning more perfectly for certain keys, although that cannot be done without making others worse.

Beyond that, most tuning issues are caused by the player, in one way or another...

WezV

i brought a batch of cheap strings purely for test assembling guitars and every singe pack had issues with the A string.   The others would all intonate fine but the A saddle was always right back and the tuner would say it needed to go further.   

It wasn't even dodgy/too sensitive readings on the tuner, I am a fan of single saddle guitars so am used to some sight intonation discrepancies, but this was so far out my ears would not cope.

I do think we rely too much on using the bridge to fix all intonation issues and have experimented with compensated nuts.   As ICBM says, taking a bit off the first fret to nut distance is the most effective way to deal with this

the issues arise when people have weird set-up requirements.  

nice article on how to compensate a nut yourself here:

http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/

also check out the microfret guitars nut - from 1967

http://www.squier-talk.com/forum/attachments/squier-vintage-modified-models/14540d1350416050-squier-vm-coronado-hollowbody-anyone-micro-frets-headstock-jpg

ChrisMusic

Excellent answers, that makes a lot of sense (as always) ICBM and thanks for posting the link @mart, kudos to you both.

I am off to make another coffee and tackle the Edge Guitar Services article, complete with spreadsheet, I do like that.

edit: as while I was typing this @WezV added the above comments.  Interesting extra info & links, ta Wez.

I assume from "a string vibrating in a nut groove is not perfectly flexible at the 'take-off' point and plays slightly flat" that you mean that the string may vibrate in the nut groove so that it's starting point may be part way into that groove and therefore the vibrating string length is slightly longer than measured from nut face to bridge face.  It should follow that a zero fret would also provide a simple solution to this variable?

Sometimes the simplest answers are the best, a lot of common sense here, (although common sense is surprisingly uncommon).

My experience and education continues, cheers guys  

mike_l

Emp_Fab said:

Earvana nuts solved all my intonation problems.

Ear defenders solved mine.