Micing your amp - what microphone?

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vizviz Frets: 4295
What do you use / recommend?
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  • bbill335bbill335 Frets: 500
    e609 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    bbill335 said:
    e609 
    What do you think of it?
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  • bbill335bbill335 Frets: 500
    viz said:
    bbill335 said:
    e609 
    What do you think of it?
    Sounds nice, no need for a mic stand, pretty affordable secondhand.
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    bbill335 said:
    viz said:
    bbill335 said:
    e609 
    What do you think of it?
    Sounds nice, no need for a mic stand, pretty affordable secondhand.
    I've got the e906 and I've decided after trying it many times that I just don't like it - it seems to impart a lushness that isn't there in the speakers. I went back to an sm58 last weekend and it seemed much better, more natural and realistic, though perhaps a little TOO dry. 
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3285
    If I can have only one: SM57 carefully placed.

    If I can have two, I'll add a character mic - a ribbon for more low mids, a room mic for space, another 57 set to get more fizz and grind...

    In principle if the '57 isn't working I'd try something else as the primary mic, but genuinely across maybe a dozen amp models I've miked it's never happened - and I have tried SM7b, RE20, Okt 012, Audix I5, MD421, AT4050, C414, even SM58 (obviously the 58 is pretty close...).
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6049
    Given this is in live, SM57 or sennheiser e906 if space is tight.

    For recording both a 57 and an MD421 as a starting point. Also have an i5 and e906 but I prefer the 57/421
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    Peavey EDI box all you need. As good as any mic in the mix without any of the drawbacks. 
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  • ibisibis Frets: 8
    Use and like an e906 on my Bassman
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  • E906 on a stand every time they just work, Beta 57 next Sm57 next then whatever’s left in the mic box. 
    E906 just hung whilst space saving difficult to get in the sweet spot and have a habit of moving during performance due to the cable not being properly secured.
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • blobbblobb Frets: 458

    Have sort of become quite attached to my SE R1 ribbon for recording.

    It's warm, detailed and things sound good through it. I'm mainly using it in front of an offset 2x12 Matamp cab and it has a lovely depth to it. You can capture great 70's saturated growl and it's a joy to dig into with a good eq. It can be a bit dominant on it's own so lately I've been sticking a SM57 next to it, but you know what, I can't get on with sm57 all that much.

    I've got a few other mics lying around, most are well suited to t'other half's beautiful folk vocals but lack the character I'm looking for. Can't name them without rooting about but I have tried most of them, nothing fancy just bog standard stuff really

    I've been trying to mic up a John Birch bass recently (with Magnum, / Biflux) and still to find anything that can do it justice. The harmonic content it puts out is overwhelming.
    Feelin' Reelin' & Squeelin'
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3285
    Oh yeah, didn't clock this was in the live section! Yeah, obviously ignore the stuff I said about second mics unless you're playing big enough venues with your own sound guy. SM57 pressed against the cloth, on axis where the dust cap joins the cone.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 1955
    As with many such things it depends.

    Any dynamic vocal style mic you have will work, the guitars ferquency range is well within those limitations. But tith guitar cabs mic position makes the single biggest difference to Eq bar none. Squashing say an sm57 somewhere against the grill gets a sound, but most engineers will fiddle with position to get the best tone before they even touch the desk Eq controls becaus eit makes than much impact. Ever seen cabs with felt pen marks or tape or paint on the grills? Thats because X marks the spot to try first and usually that is it for any touring band for a consistent good tone.
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3285
    ESBlonde said:
    As with many such things it depends.

    Any dynamic vocal style mic you have will work, the guitars ferquency range is well within those limitations. But tith guitar cabs mic position makes the single biggest difference to Eq bar none. Squashing say an sm57 somewhere against the grill gets a sound, but most engineers will fiddle with position to get the best tone before they even touch the desk Eq controls becaus eit makes than much impact. Ever seen cabs with felt pen marks or tape or paint on the grills? Thats because X marks the spot to try first and usually that is it for any touring band for a consistent good tone.
    I'm not saying this to call you out, because I totally agree with you that mic position makes a huge difference and that lots of mics will do the job fine. But thinking back on my experience of gigs in everything from toilet venues to clubs like the O2 academy to the occasional summer festival, I can't remember a single time a sound guy has ever adjusted the mic position for tonal reasons once he's heard the amp - even the good ones! They stick it on the cab when we're setting up, and indeed many of them seem to have particular positions they use, but once it's there the only reason it moves is that the singer's knocked it out of place.  =)

    Actually, coincidentally, last weekend for the first time in 10 years a sound guy asked me if there's a mic placement I prefer - but even that was only prompted by me telling him the left speaker hole on my amp is boarded up!

    I think with live sound, at least at my level, there are so many variables that any mic somewhere in front of a guitar speaker is going to sound enough like a guitar to call it good and move on.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 2955
    The biggest consideration for me when mic'ing a guitar amp up in a live situation is spill .... because at most of the venues I play at my amp is only 1 or 2 metres from the drum kit. As good as a 57 is in the studio it's not a good mic in this situation compared to a 906 \ 609. This effect is compounded by the modern method of low backline  stage volume and IEM's. On bigger stages this spill effect isn't so much of a problem.
    In the richer bands I've got 906, in the poorer bands I've got 57's and in one band a fake 57. The best performing mic at rejecting spill is the 906 .... personally I've no preference between the sound of the mics ...they both sound fine
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    In the studio I would say an SM57 and an ambient mic of your choice to mix in but live, I honestly cannot understand using a mic at all these days. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, can someone tell me the benefits?
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    In the studio I would say an SM57 and an ambient mic of your choice to mix in but live, I honestly cannot understand using a mic at all these days. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, can someone tell me the benefits?
    It's a great question, and I think in small and large venues you're right. If you've got a pub, you can get away with a 50w 2x12 or whatever, and if you're in an open air festival you can have a backline, but in a largish hall you've got to mic up otherwise it'll be too directional and sterile and divorced from the rest of the music.
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 1191
    There is a reason that the Shure SM57 is the first choice when mic'ing up a cab, 
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  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 1393
    sweepy said:
    There is a reason that the Shure SM57 is the first choice when mic'ing up a cab, 
    While a 57 works nicely I would suggest that the sennheiser 609 etc might have taken over as the first choice for many people - both sound good with little effort but the senn is more practical imo.   
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    viz said:
    In the studio I would say an SM57 and an ambient mic of your choice to mix in but live, I honestly cannot understand using a mic at all these days. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, can someone tell me the benefits?
    It's a great question, and I think in small and large venues you're right. If you've got a pub, you can get away with a 50w 2x12 or whatever, and if you're in an open air festival you can have a backline, but in a largish hall you've got to mic up otherwise it'll be too directional and sterile and divorced from the rest of the music.
    Sorry Viz you misunderstood me, I mean instead of a good DI box? 
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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 1361
    viz said:
    In the studio I would say an SM57 and an ambient mic of your choice to mix in but live, I honestly cannot understand using a mic at all these days. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, can someone tell me the benefits?
    It's a great question, and I think in small and large venues you're right. If you've got a pub, you can get away with a 50w 2x12 or whatever, and if you're in an open air festival you can have a backline, but in a largish hall you've got to mic up otherwise it'll be too directional and sterile and divorced from the rest of the music.
    Sorry Viz you misunderstood me, I mean instead of a good DI box? 
    How would you DI a vintage tube amp?

    R.
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    With my Peavey EDI box, fits between amp and speaker. Works brilliantly, very close in tone to a single SM57 in a studio setting. 
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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 3285
    With my Peavey EDI box, fits between amp and speaker. Works brilliantly, very close in tone to a single SM57 in a studio setting. 
    Ok, first of all I'm on the iPad and accidentally lol'd you, genuinely tried but can't un-lol. So, sorry!  =)

    problem i I have with that is that I do think the differences between speaker models are enough to matter live, so I want the FOH sound to reflect what my amp actually sounds like, which is a choice I've made.
    Captain Horizon (my band);
    Very (!) Occasional Blog
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 5449
    I'm usually on tiny stages so the Superlux version of the 906 works really well for me. 
    I have a flexi mic arm on my combo stand which holds it exactly where I like, halfway between cone and edge, about an inch from the cloth.

    You can just drape it through the amp handle, but it rarely stays put IME. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    viz said:
    In the studio I would say an SM57 and an ambient mic of your choice to mix in but live, I honestly cannot understand using a mic at all these days. Sorry but it makes no sense to me, can someone tell me the benefits?
    It's a great question, and I think in small and large venues you're right. If you've got a pub, you can get away with a 50w 2x12 or whatever, and if you're in an open air festival you can have a backline, but in a largish hall you've got to mic up otherwise it'll be too directional and sterile and divorced from the rest of the music.
    Sorry Viz you misunderstood me, I mean instead of a good DI box? 
    Ah yes ok. Though I haven't ever found a good di box either!
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 26303
    SM57 or H&K Red Box.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    No problem guys not a troll about this, but about 20-25 years ago I first came across the EDI box, at the time the Red Box simulator box was around and not much else. I owned local music shop at time and I was asked to do a PA demo for some bands where I showed how things had changed in live sound. 
    Some of us are old enough to remember no monitors and a HH 100w top with a speaker either side. 
    Well anyway I talked about using monitors and the disadvantages of high volume onstage and also so many mics. I thought I would use a peavey classic 30 with EDI box fitted in back and a SM57 on front of amp on stand pointing between center and outside edge of cone. 
    Now I used no EQ on either just kept both flat EQ and as I had a guitarist playing asked audience of which there were quite a few guitarists which is mic and which is EDI box, no one was confident enough to say they could tell, so as I had the guitarist moving round stage I asked him to accidentally knock mic stand enough to make mic move about an inch, now the sound understandably changed as mic was no longer pointing at same spot.
    now I know some of you use the flat type mic hanging over top of amp so that takes that issue out of argument, but I started thinking if I could really tell the difference, and to be honest I think there are subtleties that can be lost but in a live gig situation whEre each room is different and we EQ our amps and effects differently to cope with it I thought it wasn't worth hassle to use a mic. And never have since. Every sound engineer has found it really easy to get a good sound from it and funny thing is, I think it seems to work better with Marshall amps than with Peavey. 
    When I did my last studio recording with my country band, the sound engineer wanted to use his own crossed mics system of mic'ing up where I wanted to use the traditional sm57 and another ambient mic. He kept saying his system worked brilliantly so as we had about 10-15 mins before drummer got there we tried his system the traditional system and my DI box, my DI box came 2nd to the tried and trusted SM57 and an ambient mic. 
    For live use I won't think of using anything else. Don't even know how much they are now, used to be £43 back in early 90's. Probably as much as a mic now. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    No problem guys not a troll about this, but about 20-25 years ago I first came across the EDI box, at the time the Red Box simulator box was around and not much else. I owned local music shop at time and I was asked to do a PA demo for some bands where I showed how things had changed in live sound. 
    Some of us are old enough to remember no monitors and a HH 100w top with a speaker either side. 
    Well anyway I talked about using monitors and the disadvantages of high volume onstage and also so many mics. I thought I would use a peavey classic 30 with EDI box fitted in back and a SM57 on front of amp on stand pointing between center and outside edge of cone. 
    Now I used no EQ on either just kept both flat EQ and as I had a guitarist playing asked audience of which there were quite a few guitarists which is mic and which is EDI box, no one was confident enough to say they could tell, so as I had the guitarist moving round stage I asked him to accidentally knock mic stand enough to make mic move about an inch, now the sound understandably changed as mic was no longer pointing at same spot.
    now I know some of you use the flat type mic hanging over top of amp so that takes that issue out of argument, but I started thinking if I could really tell the difference, and to be honest I think there are subtleties that can be lost but in a live gig situation whEre each room is different and we EQ our amps and effects differently to cope with it I thought it wasn't worth hassle to use a mic. And never have since. Every sound engineer has found it really easy to get a good sound from it and funny thing is, I think it seems to work better with Marshall amps than with Peavey. 
    When I did my last studio recording with my country band, the sound engineer wanted to use his own crossed mics system of mic'ing up where I wanted to use the traditional sm57 and another ambient mic. He kept saying his system worked brilliantly so as we had about 10-15 mins before drummer got there we tried his system the traditional system and my DI box, my DI box came 2nd to the tried and trusted SM57 and an ambient mic. 
    For live use I won't think of using anything else. Don't even know how much they are now, used to be £43 back in early 90's. Probably as much as a mic now. 
    Not trolling, all opinions useful! So with DI, do you take the signal from the amp's output, bypassing the speakers, straight to the desk?
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    Yes, straight DI out of box left in back of amp. There is a timbre mini pot on side of box as its only control. I got someone to slowly turn it with flat EQ on desk till it sounded best to me. 
    I originally had it in my old Marshall JCM 800 1x12 4010 combo. I honestly could not tell difference between speaker and PA sound. On the Peavey I could as it sounded slightly better than stock speaker. I actually glued it onto side wall of my EXcelsior amp now and its permanently on through the PA, I leave amp on same setting every night and just turn PA channel up or down depending on venue. 
    I thought it sounded far better than the Palmer Red Box which you also had to power by 9v battery and which was twice the price at the time. 
    Will get a pic of amp later with EDI. Not trying to convert anyone it's just something I will never get rid of, mate has borrowed amp and used it as well and thought it jworked spot on. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    edited October 7
    Yes, straight DI out of box left in back of amp. There is a timbre mini pot on side of box as its only control. I got someone to slowly turn it with flat EQ on desk till it sounded best to me. 
    I originally had it in my old Marshall JCM 800 1x12 4010 combo. I honestly could not tell difference between speaker and PA sound. On the Peavey I could as it sounded slightly better than stock speaker. I actually glued it onto side wall of my EXcelsior amp now and its permanently on through the PA, I leave amp on same setting every night and just turn PA channel up or down depending on venue. 
    I thought it sounded far better than the Palmer Red Box which you also had to power by 9v battery and which was twice the price at the time. 
    Will get a pic of amp later with EDI. Not trying to convert anyone it's just something I will never get rid of, mate has borrowed amp and used it as well and thought it jworked spot on. 
    Sounds good, but with my amp setup the speakers are a very important component of my sound, at least I believe that to be the case, though I will try it. 

    I know that introducing a mic into the chain is a source of problems, as evidenced by the colouration my 906 lends to the sound, to my ear anyway. Last weekend I used an SM58 instead, pointing directly at the side of the cone - with the amp facing the back of the stage, which is how I normally do it - and it sounded really amazing. Crisp, raw and faithful. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 26303
    edited October 7
    viz said:

    So with DI, do you take the signal from the amp's output, bypassing the speakers, straight to the desk?
    Yes.

    The only suggestion I would make is that if possible and the amp has one, always use a second speaker jack (either 'extension' or one of the other impedance taps) to connect separately to the box, rather than running *through* the box to the speakers. There's no difference in the signal the box gets, but running the speaker current through it is potentially more risky to the amp, because you're introducing another cable, two jacks and plugs, and several solder connections into the signal path - if any one of these fails the amp will be left with no load. You also don't need to use a speaker cable if you're just connecting the box separately to the amp, because it is no longer carrying the speaker current. (The only exception is that if the extension speaker jack automatically switches the amp's impedance, or is in series with the internal speaker, but that's fairly rare.)

    I agree with koneguitarist - the sound out front is so heavily dependent on the PA, and especially if the EQ is not left flat, that it's a moot point as to whether what the audience hears bears any relation to your carefully chosen speaker type at all. Mic placement when right up against the grille can also make the sound *very* different from what you think the cab sounds like from even a few feet away - and if you move the mic an inch it can drastically change too.

    I'll usually just go with what the soundman wants. Some want to use their own mics, some won't use anyone else's DI box, some don't care. I have a 57 and a Red Box which cover the remaining options - the Red Box can also be used in an emergency to replace the amp entirely and go from pedalboard direct to PA.

    It could be worse, you could be playing bass... many sound engineers still like to insist on DI'ing the *bass*, not the amp - so what the audience hears has nothing to do with the sound on stage from your expensive bass amp at all.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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