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  • xpia98jfxpia98jf Frets: 306
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
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  • pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Because it's YOUR taste. That's all.

    And let's just think about the absolute ridiculousness of trying to call blues musicians artists by your own definition. A huge amount of blues is recycled, be it the song, chords, lyrics, form etc... it's a folk form, very unoriginal, very copied (even by the greats) etc. Sure it's evolved, but it's a movement.based on simple ideas that almost anyone can play and get decent at. 

    I'm also going to say that in terms of emotion, the guitar is almost irrelevant in blues. It's all about the voice...


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  • WezVWezV Frets: 9063
    WezV said:
    I often wonder if I would be better if I had the resources available to kids these days.  Probably not, I am just not that talented.  

    But I do think you have to consider that kids today have easy access to a massive amount of high quality tuition.  They will still need dedication and talent, not trying to take away from that.  But imagine how far they can go with dedication, talent... and that massive resource?

    Wanna learn something new, anything,  go to YouTube and watch a few vids and you will be on your way.   Most kids will have better google skills than you too
    On the other hand, the market is massively over crowded. There is so much music out there now, so many awesome musicians. Getting a name is harder than ever. Look at how many people rock schools alone have churned out since the mid 90's. You are also now competing at a global level. 

    So yes, kids have far more resource and access available but the bar is so much higher and the competition much greater.
    I wasn’t necessarily talking about fame, isn’t that more luck than talent?  just the opportunity to learn.  

    Yep, the bar is higher.... it is for most creative endeavours, especially ones that share well on social media.  
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  • xpia98jfxpia98jf Frets: 306
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Because it's YOUR taste. That's all.

    And let's just think about the absolute ridiculousness of trying to call blues musicians artists by your own definition. A huge amount of blues is recycled, be it the song, chords, lyrics, form etc... it's a folk form, very unoriginal, very copied (even by the greats) etc. Sure it's evolved, but it's a movement.based on simple ideas that almost anyone can play and get decent at. 

    I'm also going to say that in terms of emotion, the guitar is almost irrelevant in blues. It's all about the voice...


    It’s equally ridiculous of you to deny the status of blues or folk forms as true art. Just because a form is simple does not mean it cannot have great depth. Some of Picasso’s greatest works were his simple line drawings. Would you deny that Flamenco is a true art form?

    And I don’t swallow the first point about cultural relativism either. Some art is objectively better than other art. A Beethoven sonata has more artistic value than a Taylor Swift song full stop. If you disagree you’re wrong, simple as that.
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  • I like Taylor Swift and Beethoven.

    Beethoven isn’t touring anymore though.
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  • WezV said:
    WezV said:
    I often wonder if I would be better if I had the resources available to kids these days.  Probably not, I am just not that talented.  

    But I do think you have to consider that kids today have easy access to a massive amount of high quality tuition.  They will still need dedication and talent, not trying to take away from that.  But imagine how far they can go with dedication, talent... and that massive resource?

    Wanna learn something new, anything,  go to YouTube and watch a few vids and you will be on your way.   Most kids will have better google skills than you too
    On the other hand, the market is massively over crowded. There is so much music out there now, so many awesome musicians. Getting a name is harder than ever. Look at how many people rock schools alone have churned out since the mid 90's. You are also now competing at a global level. 

    So yes, kids have far more resource and access available but the bar is so much higher and the competition much greater.
    I wasn’t necessarily talking about fame, isn’t that more luck than talent?  just the opportunity to learn.  

    Yep, the bar is higher.... it is for most creative endeavours, especially ones that share well on social media.  
    I know, and I was suggesting that whilst the opportunity to learn is greater, it becomes much harder to make a mark with your skill / talent, even as a hobby musician.
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  • pia98jf said:
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Because it's YOUR taste. That's all.

    And let's just think about the absolute ridiculousness of trying to call blues musicians artists by your own definition. A huge amount of blues is recycled, be it the song, chords, lyrics, form etc... it's a folk form, very unoriginal, very copied (even by the greats) etc. Sure it's evolved, but it's a movement.based on simple ideas that almost anyone can play and get decent at. 

    I'm also going to say that in terms of emotion, the guitar is almost irrelevant in blues. It's all about the voice...


    It’s equally ridiculous of you to deny the status of blues or folk forms as true art. Just because a form is simple does not mean it cannot have great depth. Some of Picasso’s greatest works were his simple line drawings. Would you deny that Flamenco is a true art form?

    And I don’t swallow the first point about cultural relativism either. Some art is objectively better than other art. A Beethoven sonata has more artistic value than a Taylor Swift song full stop. If you disagree you’re wrong, simple as that.
    No you are not. Art is 100% subjective. There is no better or worse, only popular or not.

    And I was holding Blues up to your own yardstick. Blues is essentially an art form that copies itself. The greats, like the 3 Kings stamped thier own style within an extremely limited frame of reference. To use your art analogy, blues is nothing more than painting by numbers, it's just that some people are so good, thier own style comes out. It's how you compared JoBo to Johnson -  a mimic to an artist. But look at that genre, cover after cover after cover. It's a folk form, that's how it works. So based on your own argument, where is the true artistry in that?

    I don't like Bethoven or Mozart at all. On the other hand I don't mind Taylor Swift and I adore Vivvaldi and Puccini.
    Greatness in any art form, is only in the eye of the beholder.
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  • xpia98jfxpia98jf Frets: 306
    No you are not. Art is 100% subjective. There is no better or worse, only popular or not.

    Well I don’t think you could be more wrong about that but that’s just something we’re going to have to agree to disagree on. Like I said before it can’t be explained to those who don’t get it.
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1435
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Could it be that your pre conceived notion on what the kid does or does not ‘feel’ when he plays is preventing you from enjoying it?

    For example would you have reacted the same if you had only heard the playing and not seen it (with no talk or indication as to the player’s age?)

    I think we all, knowingly or otherwise, are influenced by the person creating the music and not just the music. 
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  • pia98jf said:
    No you are not. Art is 100% subjective. There is no better or worse, only popular or not.

    Well I don’t think you could be more wrong about that but that’s just something we’re going to have to agree to disagree on. Like I said before it can’t be explained to those who don’t get it.
    Fine, but I'd love to see what your criteria are for judging one persons music vs another...
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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 1877
    pia98jf said:
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Because it's YOUR taste. That's all.

    And let's just think about the absolute ridiculousness of trying to call blues musicians artists by your own definition. A huge amount of blues is recycled, be it the song, chords, lyrics, form etc... it's a folk form, very unoriginal, very copied (even by the greats) etc. Sure it's evolved, but it's a movement.based on simple ideas that almost anyone can play and get decent at. 

    I'm also going to say that in terms of emotion, the guitar is almost irrelevant in blues. It's all about the voice...


    It’s equally ridiculous of you to deny the status of blues or folk forms as true art. Just because a form is simple does not mean it cannot have great depth. Some of Picasso’s greatest works were his simple line drawings. Would you deny that Flamenco is a true art form?

    And I don’t swallow the first point about cultural relativism either. Some art is objectively better than other art. A Beethoven sonata has more artistic value than a Taylor Swift song full stop. If you disagree you’re wrong, simple as that.


    But art is interpreted differently by each individual. Everyone has an opinion. No one is right or wrong as every has their own taste.


    Beethoven may be viewed by a greater number of people to have more artistic value than Taylor Swift, but ask my 7 year old which she prefers and you'll get a different answer. My daughter isn't wrong, she's just stating what SHE prefers. You like what you like, taste is an individual thing. There isn't a correct answer when it comes to appreciation of art. there is just opinion. As you are demonstrating so well.

    I can't help about the shape I'm in, I can't sing I ain't pretty and my legs are thin

    But don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to

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  • xpia98jfxpia98jf Frets: 306
    BRISTOL86 said:
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Could it be that your pre conceived notion on what the kid does or does not ‘feel’ when he plays is preventing you from enjoying it?

    For example would you have reacted the same if you had only heard the playing and not seen it (with no talk or indication as to the player’s age?)

    I think we all, knowingly or otherwise, are influenced by the person creating the music and not just the music. 
    Fair point and I agree with you to some extent. I don’t deny that some kids can play well enough or channel enough emotion to sound ‘genuine’ so yes I could be fooled if it was just the music. But like I said earlier it’s mimicry, it’s all superficial. It can’t be anything but superficial at that age! And if there’s one thing I hate above all it’s music that’s insincere.
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  • BRISTOL86 said:
    pia98jf said:
    Art is entertainment. It might make you happy, sad, contemplative, or any number of other emotions... but the primary purpose is to entertain in some way. It’s supposed to make you feel something.

    I don’t agree that art necessarily has to entertain but I do agree with you that it should move you and make you feel something. But that’s exactly my point - I’m moved deeply when I listen to Robert Johnson but not when I listen to Joe Bo or this kid. Why is that?
    Could it be that your pre conceived notion on what the kid does or does not ‘feel’ when he plays is preventing you from enjoying it?

    For example would you have reacted the same if you had only heard the playing and not seen it (with no talk or indication as to the player’s age?)

    I think we all, knowingly or otherwise, are influenced by the person creating the music and not just the music. 
    That goes equally for gear in terms of name and price - subconscious prejudice is sadly strong within us.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 16941

    I like Taylor Swift and Beethoven.

    Beethoven isn’t touring anymore though.
    Plenty of decent tribute orchestra's though ...
    My pump-action drivel gun is smoking hot today!
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7018
    edited December 2017
    Fretwired said:

    I like Taylor Swift and Beethoven.

    Beethoven isn’t touring anymore though.
    Plenty of decent tribute orchestra's though ... 

    Whenever I go I find the performers often aren’t deaf enough to convey the true art of Beethoven’s music.


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  • Rabs said:


    he might look like Bugsy Malone - but very good - hope he sticks with it and goes on to better things
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  • Oh yeah. The whole reason for the thread. The kid is really very good. He plays blues better than I can, and I’ve been playing longer than he’s been alive. Best of luck to him 
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 1401
    Seeing as this thread has already gone down the path of what is, what isn't and what has the right to even try to be authentic, I thought that this might be amusing....Check out Paul Bloom's TED talk.

    https://www.ted.com/talks/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure


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  • siraxemansiraxeman Frets: 1924
    edited December 2017
    Fretwired said:

    I like Taylor Swift and Beethoven.

    Beethoven isn’t touring anymore though.
    Plenty of decent tribute orchestra's though ...
    How many no.1's did Beethoven have?? ...zackly!! Nuff said. 

    Anyway what would Thora Hird have said?
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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7607
    pia98jf said:
    And I don’t swallow the first point about cultural relativism either. Some art is objectively better than other art. A Beethoven sonata has more artistic value than a Taylor Swift song full stop. If you disagree you’re wrong, simple as that.
    How does it feel to jump the shark? :lol:

    A Beethoven sonata has more music theory applied to it, that's what you really mean. "Artistic value" is entirely subjective - and if you disagree about that, you really are wrong.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • ClarkyClarky Frets: 2996
    edited December 2017
    pia98jf said:
    I’m talking about the distinction between what is true art and what is not. There are ‘artists’ who could do a perfect recreation on the Mona Lisa, such that an expert would not be able to tell the difference between the real one and the copy at arm’s length. That takes some real skill. But who is the true artist here?

    It’s the same distinction that makes Robert Johnson a true artist and Joe Bo a mere journeyman - a skilful one yes - but still a journeyman. The reason for that, what make something true art as opposed to mere skillfullness, I don’t think can be explained. But it’s a distinction that definitely exists imo.
    now I see your perspective.. I agree..
    there is a distinction between being creative and performing.. and it's very clear too..

    context though..
    we all have to start somewhere.. everyone.. including the finest players ever will remember not being able to play at all..
    they had to learn how to do it just like everyone else..
    and that is where this kid is at...
    he's on a journey [just like the rest of us].. and he looks to have made a very solid start too..
    what he's doing though is not insincere.. he's trying to recreate the music of his heroes, which is part of the learning process..

    learning music is like learning a language..
    it starts with little words and phrases.. over time you build on it..
    it first you'll only be able to have simple conversations to get by..
    but fluency and a full mastery to the point where you can fully express yourself takes much much more time..

    this kid has a nice fat "phrase book" and so has plenty of licks at his disposal..
    so he's a long way down the path to true fluency.. but maybe not there yet..
    I don't doubt that he'll get there though..

    when it comes to being creative though [writing your own songs / solos etc], this is a whole different thing..
    we can all remember the first songs we wrote.. and how much they sucked... lol..
    creativity is a skill like any other.. you have to work at it.. it takes practice by doing it... a lot of it..
    I believe that song writing / composition is a direct reflection of your repertoire
    I like to think of creativity as being part of a sort of lake within us..
    the styles you know very well are places that are deep..
    the more different styles you know make it wide
    when you write you are drawing from this lake
    it's not just copying what's in there though.. it's more nebulous than that..
    your creativity puts things together in a way I'll never try to understand.. but it does need sources..
    and that's why folks that spend 100% of their playing time working only on scales, arps and technique complain that their songs and solos really suck.. it's because they have very little in the way of repertoire.. and so no music with real context..
    going back to languages.. they know all the words and grammar rules... but never had a conversation or read a novel..

    when it comes to writing lyrics, I think that being an emotionally sensitive person is a biggie..
    and this is where life experience and / or exposure to all kinds of experiences [good and bad] really comes to the fore..

    I still don't believe that bad life experiences are the only thing that enable someone to create authentic music...
    many amazing composers and song writers in all sorts of genres didn't have this at all..
    they simply had the ability to create incredibly moving music because they understood it..

    in the context of Blues you're essentially saying that the only way to be authentic is to be of a specific culture and set of life experiences.. basically a black guy from the deep south that's had a miserable life..
    sure the cultural immersion will mean you're surrounded by it and you'll 'live it'.. but it don't mean that no one else can do it and still be authentic.. it's all about the individual no matter where they are from..
    likewise, you don't have to be a black Jamaican to be an authentic Reggae musician..

    JoBo...
    in my opinion he's the Michael Buble of blues..
    extremely skilful and highly polished
    and so very sickly
    in my opinion, it's not a matter of authenticity.. it's that both of them are simply 'too nice' for my personal taste..
    a prefer music that's maybe a little less polished / pretty but with more attitude


    play every note as if it were your first
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  • KalimnaKalimna Frets: 450
    A couple of thoughts - how does one, in the absence of purely subjective opinion, measure an items' 'artistic value'? Do we have a measureable scale? Let's see, we could name the SI unit of 'artistic value' the 'Monet' for instance. Then perhaps true greats could have their work measured in megaMonets whilst us mere mortals would have their scribbles described in milliMonets. There appear to be fewer area's of human interest than the audiovisual arts where pretentiousness reigns supreme. I would suggest, that at least in the visual category but perhaps extended to audio too, the ease with which *most* people could copy a 'work' by an artist is an inverse correlate with the 'true value'. This is not a perfect description, but it's a helluva lot better than 'this is good because I say so and you are wrong if you disagree'. This is quite distinct from science. It also separates the Tracy Emin Bed's of the world from something by Turner, say.
    And a question was earlier asked (to paraphrase) 'What is the point of an art critic?'. Quite.

    Adam
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  • BRISTOL86BRISTOL86 Frets: 1435
    I can’t get my head around those who have to look for some kind of deeper meaning here. 

    It’s a kid having a fucking good time playing the guitar and being damn good at it to boot.

    Appreciate it for what it is - someone enjoying themselves doing something we all love. 
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  • KalimnaKalimna Frets: 450
    Exactly.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6256
    edited December 2017
    gah, I hate to see this. Kids like him make me sick, with his talent and obvious enjoyment of what he's doing. He should be things that I think he should be doing, not what his supportive parents say he should do. It makes me sick that they support and encourage him. I hate seeing young people happy.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • Ripping it up on a Firebird...

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  • BucketBucket Frets: 7607
    BRISTOL86 said:
    I can’t get my head around those who have to look for some kind of deeper meaning here. 

    It’s a kid having a fucking good time playing the guitar and being damn good at it to boot.

    Appreciate it for what it is - someone enjoying themselves doing something we all love. 
    This is the root of the whole thing.
    - "I'm going to write a very stiff letter. A VERY stiff letter. On cardboard."
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  • KalimnaKalimna Frets: 450
    Cracking video - the look on his face when they join him on stage :)
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  • That lads got some serious chops and good luck to him....  I think it's easy and natural to be envious of such talent but perhaps a bit of perspective helps.

    Any paramedics on here? I couldn't shovel body parts into a body bag.

    Any firefighters on here? I couldn't run into a burning building to save a life.

    Any soldiers on here? I couldn't run into a hail of machine gun fire to save my mates.

    Any carers on here? My personal nightmare is having to wipe my parent's backsides.

    The kids great but when it boils down to it, all he's doing is playing a bit of blues guitar. He'll probably grow up to be a successful surgeon or a high court judge and his guitar will be in its case under the bed whilst he get's on with living his life like the rest of us.

    That said, there's a few licks that he played that I'll be slowing down and learning myself!
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