Neck pocket too tight.

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HaychHaych Frets: 508
My bits-o-caster build is making more progress with the arrival of more parts. My body arrived today and it looks pretty good but the neck pocket is a tad too tight for the neck I have. 

The neck is pretty standard at 56mm width but I reckon the pocket on the body is about 55mm at best, so I need to shave a bit out. 

How?

Not so much what method to use but how to accurately measure since I have no centrelines on the body to measure from?

Should I just build a jig to shave 0.5mm off each edge of the pocket with a router or is there a better/easier way to go about this?

TIA
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 8593
    if the neck is unfinished some find sanding the sides easier.   I much prefer doing it on the pocket with a router, but i would only recommend it if you are familiar with router template work
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 508
    edited June 6
    WezV said:
    if the neck is unfinished some find sanding the sides easier.   I much prefer doing it on the pocket with a router, but i would only recommend it if you are familiar with router template work
    Unfortunately the neck is nitro-finished otherwise I might have gone that way. 

    I have done some routing before so might build (or buy) a neck pocket jig. 

    I’m more concerned about being able to get the mod accurate and not shave more off one side than the other and then have an out of alignment neck joint. 
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  • fandangofandango Frets: 1024
    Just a thought, but the other way of looking at the problem is that the neck is too big.

    Regardless, surely it's more sensible to shave wood off the cheaper item (neck)?
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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    edited June 6
    .
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31593
    Haych said:

    Unfortunately the neck is nitro-finished otherwise I might have gone that way. 

    I have done some routing before so might build (or buy) a neck pocket jig. 

    I’m more concerned about being able to get the mod accurate and not shave more off one side than the other and then have an out of alignment neck joint. 
    This is the problem - it's going to be difficult to get it right without an accurate jig. It's not just the amount to take off on each side, but also that the side walls (bass especially) need to be correctly aligned.

    Modding the body is the *right* way to do it though. If you sand the neck, in theory you need to taper the whole thing or there will be an odd change of angle at the pocket join, and you will probably cause problems with the string spacing.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • Jimbro66Jimbro66 Frets: 673
    I’ve had this problem a couple of times. It seems that a well-known body maker sends them out with pockets 55mm wide. The advice I was given was to route out the extra width but I lacked a template and, frankly, the confidence to remove such a small amount cleanly.

    In both cases the under-width pocket was central so I needed remove only 0.5mm each side. To do that I took a 300mm length of 23x23mm timber, rounded the ends to match the end radius of the pocket then cut and glued 3M medium abrasive paper to the wood. Then carefully moved the timber back and forth along each side of the pocket, taking care not to rock the timber and keeping even pressure. I’d marked the 0.5mm line on the top of the body each side of the pocket with tape. This method took patience but soon removed the required amount.

    I wouldn’t do that to make a greater enlargement but for only 0.5mm it worked fine both times. I certainly wouldn’t mess around with the neck, particularly not a nitro finished one.
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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    edited June 6
    Haych said:
    My bits-o-caster build is making more progress with the arrival of more parts. My body arrived today and it looks pretty good but the neck pocket is a tad too tight for the neck I have. 

    The neck is pretty standard at 56mm width but I reckon the pocket on the body is about 55mm at best, so I need to shave a bit out. 

    How?

    Not so much what method to use but how to accurately measure since I have no centrelines on the body to measure from?

    Should I just build a jig to shave 0.5mm off each edge of the pocket with a router or is there a better/easier way to go about this?

    TIA
    Out of interest? Guitarbuild unfinished body vs an AllParts nitro finished neck?

    strat or tele?
    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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  • CasperCasterCasperCaster Frets: 181
    edited June 7
    A few thoughts:

    Firstly, if the body is from GuitarBuild then also check the depth of the neck rout - some people feel it isn't deep enough, and that the neck sits too high and consequently the bridge/saddles sit too high as well - better to deal with any necessary template making and routing all in one go.

    Next, is it a Tele style neck or Strat style? 

    If it's a Tele then making a template from your actual neck, to rout the body is fairly easy with a bit of MDF and a few bits of strip wood. Although the neck tapers, it is all straight edges, and the radius in the corners will be determined by the radius of router bit. In use, I'd trust my eyes to align the template, principally using the back edge of the neck rout and the bass side as reference, setting directly against the back edge but with a fractional gap on the bass side (that being about 0.5mm for you given dimensions).

    If it's a Strat then the curve at the end of the neck pocket unfortunately makes creating a template more complicated. In that situation  I'd probably use the body and a laminate trimmer bit to create a 1:1 copy of the neck rout in MDF, then use a dissimilar combination of bit and bearing to create a second template in MDF e.g. 12mm diam bearing on 13mm diam  bit, such that second cut is 0.5mm (radius) bigger all round. Once I had a template I was happy with I'd then proceed with routing as per the Tele described above.
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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    I use GB bodies for everything I do and there hasn’t been a single issue with the neck pocket. The issue here, as per usual with self builds is people tend to purchase ready finished necks and unfinished bodies.

    Bodies seem to be less scary to finish than necks. The butt of the neck has finish on it which is preventing it from fitting, the best way to get a proper fit is to have both neck and body unfinished to allow you to see what has to be done. These parts are also from different suppliers so a 56mm heel will probably now be wider thanks to the finish applied. 

    If you have a snug fit when both items are unfinished then you have a winning formula. Apply virtually no finish to the butt of the neck. Judging by the original comments by @Haych  it seems the neck pocket measurement is a guess. I’ll bet the neck heel is over 56mm due to the finish on it. I’d get an unfinished neck and go from there
    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 508
    The width of the pocket at the point of the rear neck screws is 55.56mm, the width of the neck in the same place is 56.02mm.

    The neck and the body are both finished although there is no finish applied to the inside of the neck pocket.

    So, there's not that much to shave off either side of the pocket, but there is just enough to prevent to two parts fitting together.  If I was bloody minded I could probably force them together but I reckon that would make a mess of things and leave me even more work.

    At this point I'm tempted to shave it all off the bass side since the pocket on the treble side is already cut to allow the edge of the neck to sit flush with the body - trying to shave equal amounts of either side of the pocket will probably leave me with a bit of a ledge as the neck will overhang the body on the treble side, albeit only very slight and probably imperceptibly, but still, why make things difficult when they don't need to be.

    While the trem cavity is routed (that's probably going to need modifying too) there aren't any mounting holes drilled so I can adjust the position of the trem fitment to compensate if necessary, same with the pickguard.

    Sound feasible or have I missed something?
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  • Bond123Bond123 Frets: 2
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?
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  • CasperCasterCasperCaster Frets: 181
    Having now looked at the measurements you provided there is basically a discrepancy of about 0.5mm between the two components, (0.25mm each side of the neck) . That assumes those numbers are accurate and consistent along the length of the neck rout. Thats tiny, and not unusual for parts from two different sources, but annoying as it's just enough to stop them being used together (also, I'd say it's the finished neck that is too wide, not the body that's too narrow).

    Given the small difference I think I would probably try some very slow careful sanding with fine grit paper to remove lacquer from the neck. I know you said its tinted, but I would expect the top coats to be clear, and if you measure carefully and mask an area so that you only sand where absolutely needed I think it would be a lot less faff than routing. Of course, sand both sides of the neck the same but stop if you see tinted dust or other evidence that you are into the tinted coats of lacquer.

    If you rout from the bass side as you suggested, then everything else needs to move to the bass side. You've realised this with your comments about the bridge, but the pickguard/pickups also need to move over fractionally, potentially the mount holes in the neck too etc. 

    Just my thoughts.
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  • WezVWezV Frets: 8593
    edited June 8
    Bond123 said:
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?


    More and more people seem to expect this.   Sadly, Its not been the way guitar parts have ever worked.     I would even say part of the fun of the challenge is making parts fit... but maybe that's just because I am conditioned into it.


    You should expect that a body and neck from the same source will fit together without additional work, but even then wood movement and finish can affect how well they fit together.  

    You should not expect that a body and neck from different sources will fit together.  

    Nor should you expect that different Fender parts from different era's will fit together


    In both cases you should ask for measurements or accept the difference



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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    Bond123 said:
    If you buy a body that's a standard Fender shape one should surely expect the neck pocket to be the correct width and the correct depth. If not, why don't you send it back?
    Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that. And I know how common it is for people to assume this. You should pretty much accept that the parts probably won’t fit together and that a little doctoring will be required. 

    If you buy a cheaper neck covered in polyurethane it’s safe to assume it won’t be 56mm. 
    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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  • gavin_axecastergavin_axecaster Frets: 189
    As said above, buying from different manufacturers can require a little effort to get everything to fit. Even buying from the same manufacturer can have issues - Allparts necks and bodies are the tightest fit I've ever seen and definitely require a little work before finishing to avoid splitting the neck pocket. (Necks made in Japan, bodies in the USA)

    Allparts neck heels are very slightly wider than standard Fender spec. Always have been. Perhaps it is due to the Japanese using metric measurements, I don't know. However that does mean you need to dry fit an Allparts neck in the intended body before finishing so you can make any adjustments that may be necessary (and also why i prefer selling unfinished necks for the most part).

    Different manufacturers have different tolerances, sometimes down to their source material of their specs (T. Downs blueprint v measuring a vintage instrument), sometimes to preference - the internet has made having a tight neck fit the mythical holy grail* and a mfctr may add a few thousands to give that tight fit. Then there's how sharp are the router bits cutting the pieces, or have they been resharpened a few too many times and are now out of tolerance etc.

    Fender don't license bodies, they only license the headstock shapes. (There is no requirement in the neck license agreement for any specs/sizes for anything - the closest thing is a quality control clause.) So there is no such thing as a Fender licensed replacement body, just Fender bodies or aftermarket bodies. Still you can find plenty of examples of variance in tolerance of neck pocket fits on new Fender guitars online.

    The neck pocket measurement on the original blueprint of the Telecaster (drawn by Freddie Tavares) is 2.2 inch, or 55.88mm in new money. That's only 0.3mm bigger than the official spec for the heel of 55.56mm (2 3/16 inch) but I bet someone on TDPRI would call that a "gap" and complain it would rob them of tone! (I jest...)

    *I'm not denigrating the desire for a tight fitting neck - it is nice, but not essential.



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  • Bond123Bond123 Frets: 2

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.

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  • HaychHaych Frets: 508
    Bond123 said:

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.

    Which particular manufacturer? I wasn’t aware I’d stated where the body came from?  I admit I have the memory of a goldfish so apologies if I’m wrong. 

    After everything thats been said though, I’d rather have the pocket too tight than one that’s too big (no jokes please). 
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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    I watched a Phil X video this morning, he was playing an early 50s Esquire. Unless it was just the camera angle it looked like you could have put a pound coin down between the neck and body. It sounded great, obviously.



    Bond123 said:

    All that you have been saying is fine that mixing and matching can be a problem but @Haych has stated the measurement of the neck pocket is 55.56mm which is wrong, it should be 56mm. This has surely got to be put down to bad machining and poor quality control. Remember this is not the first time we've had postings about this problem from this particular manufacturer. Although all the help and suggestions you're giving to put this right are fine, surely the answer is to make it right at the manufacturing stage. I still say if you buy a standard Fender body it should have the correct width and depth of the neck pocket. If it isn't then it should be sent back. If all the members of the Forum who have had this problem with the neck pocket had sent the bodies back the manufacturer might get the message that they are doing it wrong.


    You know.. my last fender Strat (2007 US standard) was a beautiful instrument. Candy cola, rosewood neck.. typical stratty strat (is that even a thing?). I subsequently sold it told help fund the business. But I was doing a mock up one day with a neck I had finished and decided to remove the neck from my fender to take a picture. When I unscrewed the neck it slumped down immediately. Visually, it was a neat fit but when not screwed in it was having none of it. I took the neck off and put the one I had just finished in. I was able to pick the guitar up with the neck (no screws attached) and wave it around. It wasn’t going anywhere.

    So... my guess is the guy who finished the heel of the neck in the US was a little heavy handed on the sanding? Either that or fender are responsible for “bad machining and poor QC”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a bad word against fender for QC at all, in actual fact. 

    What i I can say for certain is the fender neck was made in America, the neck I finished was made in Japan. Two necks, two fits. 

    There will never be identical spec pieces made by different manufacturers in different countries using different machines and tooling. I’m baffled as to why you think that they should all retrofit each other without ANY tweaking what so ever. 


    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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  • prowlaprowla Frets: 902
    I was chatting with a professional guitar maker last weekend about neck pockets and he said that a tight fitting pocket is not desirable, but that wood-on-wood between the neck and base of the pocket is.

    I was asking him about a neck for a Fender MIM body I have which seems to have a slightly too narrow pocket.
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  • SteveRobinsonSteveRobinson Frets: 1706
    The Fender spec is 2 3/16" wide which equates to 55.56mm.
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  • GSPBASSESGSPBASSES Frets: 1117
    edited June 12
    Just confuse the issue even more, go to https://aperioguitar.com/what-you-dont-know-about-fender-necks-and-should/

    And to confuse the issue even more, if we take 2 3/16" as the size of the neck pocket, then necks from WD, Allparts and Warmoth plus many more will not fit as they need a 56mm, 56.1mm or 56.6mm neck pocket. 

    It also seems Warmoth are not too sure of how wide there neck heels are. They say they are 2 3/16"  but then in brackets they put 56mm, no wonder nobody knows what size the neck pocket should be. It could be the 56mm in brackets is the size of the neck pocket the neck needs, who knows.

    http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/Strat_WarmothPro.aspx

    https://www.wdmusic.co.uk/necks-c60/strat-necks-c180/wd-music-strat-vintage-neck-maple-clear-gloss-finish-p3118


    While I was writing the above it occurred to me I have a new American standard Stratocaster upstairs in its case, that is hasn't seen daylight for about 16 years (it's a present for my grandson when he's 18 years old), I shall go and measure the neck pocket and the width of the neck heel.

    Right, I've done that I used two different makes of digital calipers, and surprise, surprise, the neck heel is 56mm, I didn't take the neck out, but one has to presume the neck pocket is just over 56mm.

    I'm not taking sides, I'm just pointing out why there can be so many differences of opinion. You can Google this information and find fender plans and third-party plans that will confirm either side of the argument, be it 2 3/16" or 56mm or more. 










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  • HaychHaych Frets: 508
    edited June 12
    So, a bit of an update.....

    No, I haven't got anything bolted together yet, I've decided if I rush things before I'm ready I'll make a hash of it so I'm going to take my time.

    I have ordered an acrylic neck pocket template which arrived this morning, test fitted the heel of the neck and it's a snug fit, but it fits - there is a tiny amount of interference so I can work with that.

    The other problem I have with this body (not really a problem, though) is that it isn't pre-drilled for the trem, which I'm quite glad about as most of them come drilled for a Fender vintage style trem and I'm fitting a Schaller vintage trem which despite it's name has modern two post mounting and at Floyd Rose dimensions to boot.

    So, with no reference to know where to drill the trem and a neck pocket too tight what do I do first, fit the neck and hope it's aligned properly so I can then use that as a reference to fit the trem?  Not my preferred method if I'm honest.  I'd much rather fit the trem first so I can lightly clamp the neck in place and use the two e-strings as a reference to know that the neck is aligned properly and know where to drill the neck screws.

    The other small issue that I have is that the acrylic template I have is a bit too thin for my router.  I can't really use it with a bearing template cutter without making the neck pocket waaaaaaaay too deep.

    So, all things added up I am going to use the neck pocket template to make two separate templates from 9mm MDF, sandwiched together they will provide the router with enough clearance to allow the template cutter to trace the profile at the right depth... simples!

    I have also transposed (if that's the right word) the trem fitment onto one piece of MDF in relation to the neck.  Once I've finished modifying the neck pocket I can test fit the neck and double check my measurements to make sure I'm fitting the trem so it will intonate properly.

    https://imgur.com/gallery/KrdQ2bV

    Again, I'll be taking it slowly, measuring twice (umpteen times, more like) and cutting once.  But once I have the templates measured and aligned properly over the body it should make getting it right much easier and accurate than guestimation and good luck.
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  • GSPBASSESGSPBASSES Frets: 1117
    If you haven't started modifying your neck pocket yet, a suggestion. You stated that the holes haven't been drill for the tremolo yet. Which could be a good thing, as I'm suggesting instead of taking wood off equally either side, just take it off the bass side, as you're only going to take about .5mm in total off. What this will avoid is having the neck overhanging the neck pocket slightly on the treble side. You may have to modify the tremolo routs just a bit to move it .5mm the bass side, although some tremolo routs there might be enough tolerance anyway. As far as lining up pickups and the scratch plate, again there should be sufficient tolerance in the rout to move it all over .5mm without any problems.
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  • HaychHaych Frets: 508
    GSPBASSES said:
    If you haven't started modifying your neck pocket yet, a suggestion. You stated that the holes haven't been drill for the tremolo yet. Which could be a good thing, as I'm suggesting instead of taking wood off equally either side, just take it off the bass side, as you're only going to take about .5mm in total off. What this will avoid is having the neck overhanging the neck pocket slightly on the treble side. You may have to modify the tremolo routs just a bit to move it .5mm the bass side, although some tremolo routs there might be enough tolerance anyway. As far as lining up pickups and the scratch plate, again there should be sufficient tolerance in the rout to move it all over .5mm without any problems.
    Haha, great minds think alike ;) If you scroll up a bit you should see that’s exactly what I’d planned to do and for exactly the same reasons. 

    Its nice to have it confirmed as a good idea by somebody with oodles more experience than me though, so a very useful comment all the same. 

    Cheers bud :)
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1103
    Fenders QC would never let a guitar go out with an ill fitting neck joint! ;)


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  • GSPBASSESGSPBASSES Frets: 1117
    lonestar said:
    poopot said:
    Fenders QC would never let a guitar go out with an ill fitting neck joint!




    So... my guess is the guy who finished the heel of the neck in the US was a little heavy handed on the sanding? Either that or fender are responsible for “bad machining and poor QC”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a bad word against fender for QC at all, in actual fact. 

     


    Opps






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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    GSPBASSES said:
    lonestar said:
    poopot said:
    Fenders QC would never let a guitar go out with an ill fitting neck joint!




    So... my guess is the guy who finished the heel of the neck in the US was a little heavy handed on the sanding? Either that or fender are responsible for “bad machining and poor QC”. I don’t think I’ve ever seen or heard a bad word against fender for QC at all, in actual fact. 

     


    Opps






    Well hey, there’s always a first :) at least my stuff doesn’t leave like that!
    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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  • poopotpoopot Frets: 1103
    lonestar said:

    Well hey, there’s always a first :) at least my stuff doesn’t leave like that!
    I had a 2011 USA strat that had the same overhang as well... wonder if it was a quirk to that year... that said, my 89 USA strat, I used to store spare picks in the gap on the bass side of the pocket!...
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  • lonestarlonestar Frets: 1797
    I saw Phil X playing a 50s Esquire on YouTube... the gap at the treble side of the pocket was amusing. It still sounded amazing. I wonder if fender were bothered about a really tight fit back in the day 
    Owner of SC Relics Guitars 
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