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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214

    However, the consumption of my bagel and the effect it has on my body is nothing like consuming 13 sugar cubes.

    Exactly - which is exactly the point I first made when I responded to the claim that "effect on the body is same as up to 12 teaspoons of sugar from eating a Bagel".
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 986
    Can't remember the last time I had a bagel, I got muffin to say on the subject.
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13049
    Sporky said:
    Emp_Fab said:

    I was only suggesting that you may not be the voice of authority on a programme about nutrition.  The bottom line is that either you are right - [childish ad-hominem removed] - slagging off the claims made by a dietician and a doctor in the programme, or they are 
    Indeed. So show me where what I posted is incorrect. 

    And hold off on the personal attacks and incorrect descriptions of what I do for a living, both make you look silly.

    So far all you've posted is ad-hominem and arguments from authority. I, on the other hand, have posted verifiable facts. Point out where I was wrong, if you can - you can check all the numbers very easily. 
    What 'personal attacks' ?  I haven't called you anything other than unqualified to dispute the opinions of two eminent experts in a field you don't work in.  If you are offended by me saying I'd sooner believe them than you then you need to check your ego.

    As for not being 100% accurate in my reference to your job - I can't see how that makes me "look silly".  I'm in the ballpark enough to know that you're not medically qualified.  That is all that is relevant.  I'm quite sure you are one of the best at whatever it is that you do, but whatever it is, you're still not a doctor or a dietician.

    "All (I've) done is posted ad-hominem and arguments from authority".   Yeah... Authorities on the subject!!  

    I'm not egotistical or arrogant enough to think I can publicly call the evidence of two experts in the field "bollocks" when I'm just a computer engineer searching the internet.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    edited June 12
    So, yet again, you're refusing to explain what it is that I posted that you think is wrong, preferring to suggest that I'm "arrogant", "egotistical", "unqualified", "frothy-mouthed", blah blah blah. If what I posted is incorrect, prove it - I've posted all the numbers.

    Why do you prefer name-calling to discussion?
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    And as you don't seem to know what an argument from authority is, or why it isn't a good argument, have a read of this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

    Essentially you are saying that if an expert says something about their own field, they are unquestionably correct (and shouldn't even be challenged), even if strong, verifiable evidence exists that their statement is incorrect.

    This is also odd as you've frequently disagreed with experts in the past, on matters that lie within their field of expertise. Why the shift now?

    In any case, if you can show that what I've posted is incorrect please do so. The numbers are all there for you to check. See if you can do it without any name-calling - direct or indirect. :)
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    Oooh. I've got a phantom loller. I've finally made it!
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13049
    Sheesh.....    Pointless conversation.  I'm bored with arguing with a monster ego.  You're something else dude...
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    You're not arguing - you're just slinging insults to try to get a rise out of me.

    Point out where I was incorrect in what I posted.
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13049
    edited June 13
    I'm not trying to get a rise out of you.  I'm just not interested in arguing with someone who is not medically qualified but has the gall to call the claims made by two highly qualified experts in the field "Utter bollocks". 

    I'm not interested in the numbers you are posting or your attempts to engage me in your layman's attack on the evidence of experts.  Why ? - because I'm not qualified to make anything other than an uneducated half-assed fist at it - but - at least I'm aware of that.

    We may as well argue the pro's and con's of various neutron moderators in nuclear power generation or the safest way to concrete a roof - subjects I'm quite confident neither of us know jack shit about.  Neither you nor I have the education, experience or qualifications to sensibly critique the statements made by experts in the field of medicine and nutrition, nuclear power generation or concrete technology.

    I trust that what they are telling me is correct based on my faith in them as experts and the fact that them taking part in a TV programme and talking "utter bollocks" to camera - a programme that would likely be seen by their peers - would be professional suicide for them.

    I wouldn't dream of assuming I know better than them.  You however, appear to not have such reservations.

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  • NiteflyNitefly Frets: 2062

    "Emp and Sporky, sitting in a tree,
    K - I - S - S - I - N - G!"

    Grown most uncommonly fat!
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    edited June 13
    Emp_Fab said:
     I'm not qualified to make anything other than an uneducated half-assed fist at it 

    Not everyone is as defined by what they do for a living though; some of us are well-read and well-informed in a decent range of subjects. Do also remember that Lady BMcH is a biochemist with a Masters - I have learnt a thing or three from her. 

    For you to suggest that I don't know what I'm talking about here is unspeakably arrogant on your part, especially given that you freely admit to being entirely ignorant on the subject. How, then, are you qualified to judge what I've posted? By your own argument you are not.
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    Nitefly said:

    "Emp and Sporky, sitting in a tree,
    K - I - S - S - I - N - G!"

    This'd be a lot easier if Emp would just admit he has a massive boner for me. 

    It's not reciprocated I'm afraid.
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • PC_DavePC_Dave Frets: 1332
    Bored now.

    And I don’t like bagels. 
    This week's procrastination forum might be moved to sometime next week.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    I don't like the New York Bagel Co ones. The Warburtons ones are much better. 
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    edited June 13
    BTW @Emp_Fab - in the car aircon thread you admitted that you're not an expert on the subject, and then went on to claim that the aircon service people (who do it for a living and thus are, by your metric, experts) had done it wrong.

    How's that tally with your stance here, where you've maintained that it's arrogant and egotistical (your own words) to question those better qualified than you are? 
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • strtdvstrtdv Frets: 1167
    Well that got off track quickly.

    To bring it vaguely back on track I had takeaway pizza and hot wings yesterday, and will be having the leftovers of said pizza today.

    As far as cutting out carbs completely goes, you can't do it. "Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame", look the Krebs cycle, you need pyruvate (sourced from carbs) to form the oxaloacetate required to oxidise acetyl co A (sourced from fat).
    You can get away with a small amount of carbs but you can't do without completely.

    This is why when you're doing an endurance sport like distance running or cycling you can run a long distance in the "fat burning zone" by taking small amounts of carbs regularly. The carbs "unlock" the fat burning potential (long after you've run out of glycogen/"hit the wall").

    There's some evidence that the Atkins/ketogenic diet actually works as a calorie controlled diet, you simply eat fewer calories as you can't face eating any more dry protein.

    Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    edited June 14
    strtdv said:

    As far as cutting out carbs completely goes, you can't do it. "Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame", look the Krebs cycle, you need pyruvate (sourced from carbs) to form the oxaloacetate required to oxidise acetyl co A (sourced from fat).
    You can get away with a small amount of carbs but you can't do without completely.

    Absolutely true, and I massively over-simplified earlier when I suggested you could - sorry all.

    I think what I meant (but didn't actually write) is that you can cut out all the bread and pasta type carbs, not literally all carbohydrate.

    After all (on top of what you posted), I'm not sure it's possible to take in enough dietary fibre without some carbs, so it's impossible on a practical level as well as a metabolic one.

    I thought the Atkins thing was pretty well established - that it essentially works via calorie control, but is also relatively easy to stick to because you're allowed lots of delicious fat (which also helps you feel full)?
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 13049
    Sporky said:
    BTW @Emp_Fab - in the car aircon thread you admitted that you're not an expert on the subject, and then went on to claim that the aircon service people (who do it for a living and thus are, by your metric, experts) had done it wrong.

    How's that tally with your stance here, where you've maintained that it's arrogant and egotistical (your own words) to question those better qualified than you are? 
    Oh FFS... right.... one LAST time on this...  it's boring as hell now.....

    1. I prefaced my comment with the statement that I am not an expert (therefore all that follows is at best conjecture).  You made no such disclaimer and went for the "(They're talking) Utter Bollocks".  One shows an acceptance that I may be wrong, the other is an emphatic statement that you are right and they are wrong.

    2. Read my post again.  I did not say the garage had "done it wrong".  I asked the OP IF he knew if they had done a leak test.  Big difference.  I was questioning what had happened.

    Nice try at the straw man though.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13214
    Emp_Fab said:

    1. I prefaced my comment with the statement that I am not an expert (therefore all that follows is at best conjecture).  You made no such disclaimer and went for the "(They're talking) Utter Bollocks".  One shows an acceptance that I may be wrong, the other is an emphatic statement that you are right and they are wrong.
    Ah, we've started on the retcon bit of your standard approach to trying-to-be-a-bully-on-the-internet.

    I explained why they were wrong, did I not? You have failed to demonstrate that my workings-out were incorrect, instead you've just insisted over and over that I am not fit to even dare to post such workings-out. By removing all of my reasoning and reducing my post to two words you are demonstrating incredible arrogance and hypocrisy.

    I posted verifiable facts - please either point out where I was wrong or admit that you were just going for a cheap dig that has utterly backfired.

    I'd also point out that your attempt to drag this argument into the interview thread is completely classless.
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 5964
    Jeez ladies put the handbags down.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 6995
    strtdv said:
    Well that got off track quickly.

    To bring it vaguely back on track I had takeaway pizza and hot wings yesterday, and will be having the leftovers of said pizza today.

    As far as cutting out carbs completely goes, you can't do it. "Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame", look the Krebs cycle, you need pyruvate (sourced from carbs) to form the oxaloacetate required to oxidise acetyl co A (sourced from fat).
    You can get away with a small amount of carbs but you can't do without completely.

    This is why when you're doing an endurance sport like distance running or cycling you can run a long distance in the "fat burning zone" by taking small amounts of carbs regularly. The carbs "unlock" the fat burning potential (long after you've run out of glycogen/"hit the wall").

    There's some evidence that the Atkins/ketogenic diet actually works as a calorie controlled diet, you simply eat fewer calories as you can't face eating any more dry protein.

    One of the things he did on the show was to have a sports drink ( ie carbs) in his mouth without swallowing which apparently tricks the brain into thinking you are consuming carbs. I felt that the downside of doing this regularly would be that your teeth would fall out, although he didn't mention that. 
    Dum dum dum, dum dum de dum, dum dum dum, dum dummmm.
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  • westwest Frets: 284
    strtdv said:
    Well that got off track quickly.

    To bring it vaguely back on track I had takeaway pizza and hot wings yesterday, and will be having the leftovers of said pizza today.

    As far as cutting out carbs completely goes, you can't do it. "Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame", look the Krebs cycle, you need pyruvate (sourced from carbs) to form the oxaloacetate required to oxidise acetyl co A (sourced from fat).
    You can get away with a small amount of carbs but you can't do without completely.

    This is why when you're doing an endurance sport like distance running or cycling you can run a long distance in the "fat burning zone" by taking small amounts of carbs regularly. The carbs "unlock" the fat burning potential (long after you've run out of glycogen/"hit the wall").

    There's some evidence that the Atkins/ketogenic diet actually works as a calorie controlled diet, you simply eat fewer calories as you can't face eating any more dry protein.

    Just to mention gluconeogenesis, in the absence of non carbohydrate substrates , minimal glucose can be obtained from protein breakdown , the heart and the brain do very well on ketones in fact it is the brains prefered fuel when both are present ...  just sayin ;)
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  • strtdvstrtdv Frets: 1167
    I'm not hugely well read on the subject, but would you be able to point me to studies backing that point up?

    My understanding (though limited) is that the brain generally uses glucose as a primary energy source (it has mainly GLUT1 transporters which are not insulin controlled as such), and that in the presence of ketone bodies there is a sparing effect on the glucose consumption in the brain, which to my mind implies that it is the glucose which is "preferred" rather than the ketone bodies, as the brain recognises a starvation state and therefore conserves the glucose.
    (There are studies involving functional MRI scanning in rats which back this up)

    Happy to be shown otherwise though.
    Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
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  • westwest Frets: 284
    i'll see if i can find anything ;)  are you aware of peters blog Hyperlipid  he's a clever chap ,  a lot of it goes over my head but i try ..... http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/

    im sure your aware or the 80 90% fat keto diets used for child epilepsy to vastly reduce or stop siezures ...

    also there are many fully keto adapted endurance athletes out there now , if there stupid enough to do such events ...

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  • boogiemanboogieman Frets: 4975
    Sporky said:
    I don't like the New York Bagels. 
    Neither do I, especially as the last packet we bought had mouse shit inside one of the bagels. Never eaten them since. (We got a £5 voucher off them, to spend on more bagels. Riiiight, thanks for that!) 
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