Volume issues - it's peeing me off

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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 1724
    You give me one example, of a particular type of band.

    Ok, I'll roll with it. Let's assume that bands most well-known track is playing. What do people singalong with?
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 13591
    You give me one example, of a particular type of band.

    Ok, I'll roll with it. Let's assume that bands most well-known track is playing. What do people singalong with?
    GnR. Sweet Child. What’s most important?

    Deep Purple. Smoke on the wataaaah. What’s most important?

    Fleetwood Mac. The Chain. What’s most important. 

    Coldpay (ffs). Clocks. What’s most important? 

    Answer is of course, every bit of the band.


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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 13591
    Anyway, this is irrelevant to the original question - the fact is, a band needs to be mixed for balance and for the best possible sound. Guitar included. Sometimes that mix can be screwed up by a narrow projecting guitar amp or a poorly positioned cab - and of course on stage balance is a totally different thing to front of house balance. 
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  • @Travisthedog I also have an Egnater Rebel 30 and the Watt control isn't actually an attenuator, it's more of an effect on the headroom of the amp. So, for example, if you want the drive channel to break up sooner and give you more compression, you would wind the Watt control down to 1. 

    I was having the same issue as you where the amp was too loud for rehearsals and small gigs so what I did was built a volume control that plugs into the effects loop (similar to what @p90fool suggested re using a volume pedal) and now I can set the two channels to a reasonable level, and then wind up this fake Master volume control.

    I got the idea from this video by Brian Wampler 

    A feature that a lot of people don't seem to talk about on these Rebel amps is how good the DI output on the back is. It's my go to for recording and putting my amp through the PA and very easy for a soundperson to control. The added benefit to this is that you can then have your amp directed at you acting as a monitor rather than facing forward and you don't have to have another microphone stand on stage.


    "As with all things, some days you're the dinosaur, some days you're the monkey." Sporky
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4043
    p90fool said: no
    +1 on the cleaner amp/dirtier pedal balance, it's a lot more predictable. 

    Do you have an effects loop? If so, bung a volume pedal in it so you can self mix.

    It may not be your fault at all, I depped with a band on Saturday with a bassist who was deafening on his favourite songs and inaudible on most others, making ME feel I was too loud or too quiet a lot of the time.
    This sounds wrong to me. The dirtier the amp the more compression in the sound so pushing volume on the input is going to get more saturation rather than more volume unless you aren't going into the front end hit enough in which case your SNR is prob shite by the time you add distortion anyway. By contrast if you are going into a clean amp with plenty of head room then you will be at the mercy of your pedals volune settings. I guess maybe you were talking about boosting into a crunch channel which obviously will lie somewhere between the 2.

    The answer of course is to use amp gain because it is at least 8 times better anyway.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7994
    p90fool said: no
    +1 on the cleaner amp/dirtier pedal balance, it's a lot more predictable. 

    Do you have an effects loop? If so, bung a volume pedal in it so you can self mix.

    It may not be your fault at all, I depped with a band on Saturday with a bassist who was deafening on his favourite songs and inaudible on most others, making ME feel I was too loud or too quiet a lot of the time.
    This sounds wrong to me. The dirtier the amp the more compression in the sound so pushing volume on the input is going to get more saturation rather than more volume unless you aren't going into the front end hit enough in which case your SNR is prob shite by the time you add distortion anyway. By contrast if you are going into a clean amp with plenty of head room then you will be at the mercy of your pedals volune settings. I guess maybe you were talking about boosting into a crunch channel which obviously will lie somewhere between the 2.

    The answer of course is to use amp gain because it is at least 8 times better anyway.
    Did you read the post you just quoted at all?
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4043
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3502
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4043
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3502
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7994
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    Ah ok, tuatth why I suggested a volume pedal in the loop. 

    Basically there are a lot of ways to arrive at a similar place and none of them are wrong, but I do like to be able to self mix, hence my need for a clean power section and some sort of control over master volume. 
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4043
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
    Have you had a diezel there isn't anything that can touch Ch3 on a VH4? :D \m/
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 1261
    Just read some of this.  A volume control in the loop isn't going to solve your issues as that wouldn't solve the problem of the clean/dirty balance, it seems to me the issue is setting up stuff quietly at home and then being surprised it doesn't work at rehearsal.  The only solution is to get to know your gear and figure out how to set it up at gig volume to get the best out of it.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7994
    John_A said:
    Just read some of this.  A volume control in the loop isn't going to solve your issues as that wouldn't solve the problem of the clean/dirty balance, it seems to me the issue is setting up stuff quietly at home and then being surprised it doesn't work at rehearsal.  The only solution is to get to know your gear and figure out how to set it up at gig volume to get the best out of it.
    Well that depends on the type of band, there isn't a clean/dirty balance which would work for me for every song in our three hour set. 

    Sometimes I need a loud clean solo to ring out over the whole band, other times I need dirty power chords well beneath the vocals. 

    I don't think I've ever played in a band where clean was always x volume and dirty was always y volume, and other than something like a Dr Feelgood tribute I can't imagine many others do.  
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 1261
    ^ totally agree, but the OPs issue seems to be he steps on a dirt pedal and gets told he's too loud, even if you need to tweak levels for different songs, you need to learn how much you need to tweak by, and with a clean amp the difference between home and rehearsal volumes can be big
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 7994
    Wis'd, it can be a minefield. I tend to run my preamp gain so it's just starting to break up, so there's a limit to how much extra volume an overdrive pedal can give, making its level control less sensitive. 
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4130
    A horrible tone at any volume can be too loud. 
    Not suggesting the op has horrible tone, but I used to play with a guy who had the most ear splitting trebly Reverb soaked tone ever, I used to go home after rehearsal with a headache, but he felt it was just right. 

    Maybe the OP is a bit brighter than he realises, this can be doubly so when you are on top of your amp. 
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 1261
    A horrible tone at any volume can be too loud. 
    Not suggesting the op has horrible tone, but I used to play with a guy who had the most ear splitting trebly Reverb soaked tone ever, I used to go home after rehearsal with a headache, but he felt it was just right. 

    Maybe the OP is a bit brighter than he realises, this can be doubly so when you are on top of your amp. 
    He was in your band too ;)
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3555
    The trouble is setting the amount of voltage gain at home and hearing the responding acoustic dB change won't translate to the right dB gain at all acoustic levels .... there is really no substitute for setting the voltage gain at the acoustic level it's going to be used at. In my experience though you always need less boost than you think. 

    A crafty solution for a clean volume boost from dirt pedals into amp is actually use a volume cut. This is basically a volume pot in a box with an in & out and a footswitch that's switchs the middle wiper to the end lug to bypass any attenuation. knock the pot back a bit and that's your normal sound. Hit the switch and that's your solo boost .... doesn't colour the sound, won't drive the input of the amp any harder and cost around £20 to build. 

    90% of the time I have an engineer turning me up and down but if I do set up a boost it's only subtle .... as I said you need less than you would think, especially if the band plays with sympathy to whoever is meant to be in the spotlight ... 90% of the time that's always the  lead vox but the band it's self can also ease off slightly to get the guitar solo heard better as well. As a engineer you find the more experienced the band the less mixing they need 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4130
    John_A said:
    A horrible tone at any volume can be too loud. 
    Not suggesting the op has horrible tone, but I used to play with a guy who had the most ear splitting trebly Reverb soaked tone ever, I used to go home after rehearsal with a headache, but he felt it was just right. 

    Maybe the OP is a bit brighter than he realises, this can be doubly so when you are on top of your amp. 
    He was in your band too ;)
    Eh?
    speak up!!!!


    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4130

    Danny1969 said:
    The trouble is setting the amount of voltage gain at home and hearing the responding acoustic dB change won't translate to the right dB gain at all acoustic levels .... there is really no substitute for setting the voltage gain at the acoustic level it's going to be used at. In my experience though you always need less boost than you think. 

    A crafty solution for a clean volume boost from dirt pedals into amp is actually use a volume cut. This is basically a volume pot in a box with an in & out and a footswitch that's switchs the middle wiper to the end lug to bypass any attenuation. knock the pot back a bit and that's your normal sound. Hit the switch and that's your solo boost .... doesn't colour the sound, won't drive the input of the amp any harder and cost around £20 to build. 

    90% of the time I have an engineer turning me up and down but if I do set up a boost it's only subtle .... as I said you need less than you would think, especially if the band plays with sympathy to whoever is meant to be in the spotlight ... 90% of the time that's always the  lead vox but the band it's self can also ease off slightly to get the guitar solo heard better as well. As a engineer you find the more experienced the band the less mixing they need 
    Depends on the genre. 
    I play quite aggressive metal, so dynamically it just doesn’t work to back off for a solo, adaption of tone ( less low, more mids) and good old fashioned volume are the solo tones of choice.   
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3502
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
    Have you had a diezel there isn't anything that can touch Ch3 on a VH4? :D \m/
    Wouldn't want to sound like that.  Might have 25 years ago, but that's what HM2 pedals are for. :)
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 4130
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
    Have you had a diezel there isn't anything that can touch Ch3 on a VH4? :D \m/
    Wouldn't want to sound like that.  Might have 25 years ago, but that's what HM2 pedals are for. :)
    Ha ha, if you equate an HM-2 to a Diezel then you have a looooong way to go in the ‘recognising tone’ journey. 
    Its just different flavours, nothing is better or best, just 50 shades of gain. 


    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • shaunmshaunm Frets: 863
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
    Have you had a diezel there isn't anything that can touch Ch3 on a VH4? :D \m/
    Wouldn't want to sound like that.  Might have 25 years ago, but that's what HM2 pedals are for. :)
    Ha ha, if you equate an HM-2 to a Diezel then you have a looooong way to go in the ‘recognising tone’ journey. 
    Its just different flavours, nothing is better or best, just 50 shades of gain. 


    Nah gainy amp, samey amps. 

    For a proper amp journey filled with snake oil and false superlatives you’ve got to play the blues on an amp that sounds like other amps it just costs three times as much. 
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  • HattigolHattigol Frets: 551
    Rocker said:
    The point is that you might be too loud. The function of the band is to support the lead vocalist. If he/she sounds loud and clear, the band adjust their volumes to suit. Faffing about with pedals is one way to get on everyone's wick due to loudness issued. Ask yourself do you really need to use every pedal on your board. If you do, then put in the hours balancing volume levels. When happy, write the settings down in case something gets accidentally moved. Check the settings against the sheet before every gig.
    I both agree and disagree. The band is there to balance and enrich the sound in equal measure, not just to support the lead vocalist - to supplement, complement, broaden and much more.
    +1 to that. We're musicians, not vocalist support.

    There's a great story about Charlie Watts. Mick sent a runner to his hotel room saying 'Mick wants his drummer'. Charlie puts his suit on, comes downstairs, punches Mick square on the nose and says 'I'm not your f**cking drummer, you're my f**cking singer', then goes back to bed.

    Which I think pretty much sums it up.
    "Anybody can play. The note is only 20%. The attitude of the motherf*cker who plays it is  80%" - Miles Davis
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 4043
    shaunm said:
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    crunchman said:
    Prob should have quoted ICBM but was really aimed at both of you (your first sentence) recommending drive pedals to get the dirt. More controllable, but less consistent volume wise. 
    It's a matter of having the right pedals and setting the levels properly.

    I've never yet come across a channel switcher that sounds as good as a good single channel amp.  Most drive in channel switch amps sounds fizzy anyway.

    The ideal is to get a single channel amp on the edge of breakup, so when you do kick a pedal in, it's not just pedal drive.  It will be pushing the amnp over the edge as well.
    A lot of the signature drive tones from the last 30 years have been from channel switchers! I think you're stuck in the 70s!
    I've had channel switchers (at least 4 of them) and got rid of them.

    A good simple single channel amp seems to have a quality of tone that is missing from any channel switcher I have ever tried.
    Have you had a diezel there isn't anything that can touch Ch3 on a VH4? :D \m/
    Wouldn't want to sound like that.  Might have 25 years ago, but that's what HM2 pedals are for. :)
    Ha ha, if you equate an HM-2 to a Diezel then you have a looooong way to go in the ‘recognising tone’ journey. 
    Its just different flavours, nothing is better or best, just 50 shades of gain. 


    Nah gainy amp, samey amps. 

    For a proper amp journey filled with snake oil and false superlatives you’ve got to play the blues on an amp that sounds like other amps it just costs three times as much. 
    pfffttt, low gain just masks all your poor technique because you don't have to control the feedback, mute strings your not playing and avoid string noise.
    This is my rant thread, there are others like it, but this one is mine.
    Bet you're wondering if this is a flounce? Truth is I haven't decided yet.
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