Patriotism

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WolfetoneWolfetone Frets: 989
I have been to the US four times this year. The outstanding feature of the States is the patriotism of its people and I would go so far to say that there is no more a patriotic nation than America. The flag is omnipresent and revered. The military and police are thanked for their service and given priority treatment in most places. 

So, what is the problem with the UK and its apparent embarrassment with its identity? Why don't we have the same self belief and reverence for our flag and nation?

I am still here in the states and my current stay covered the July 4th celebration. I almost felt like a US citizen myself such was the heady patriotism of the modest parade put on by the local townspeople. They even polished up the municipal wagons and filled them with stars and stripes beach balls. 

Personally, I am sick of the introvertion and self denial of the British. We should celebrate our greatness, the flag and our heritage. We too should revere our union flag and nation. We should shame anyone that disrespects Britain.

Am I wrong or should I just become an American and be done with it? 
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 15388
    edited July 10
    No you aren’t wrong, and before anyone tries any of that colonial shaming crap, the Americans should be reminded of when we abolished slavery and ensured equality for citizens of different race. 
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  • strtdvstrtdv Frets: 1192
    edited July 10
    You don't share the views of your namesake then?

    On a more serious note, the USA has a superficial support of military personnel, but you don't need to look hard to find plenty of homeless ex-servicemen.

    The British are more reserved about most things, and to be honest I view the blind patriotism of the USA more as a form of control exerted by those in power over the working class.
    Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
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  • LegionreturnsLegionreturns Frets: 4915
    Pride most certainly isn't universal stateside. Especially where police are concerned. 

    I also think that more and more people worldwide are becoming disconnected from their governments and the ruling classes, and the notion that one patch of land is better than another because of an arbitrary line on a map. 

    I'm certainly not proud of our leaders, but then they don't give a fuck about most of us either.

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  • This denagration of our national identity is a communist conspiracy to sap and infiltrate our natural bodily fluids.
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  • Adam_MDAdam_MD Frets: 2887
    edited July 10
    My problem with American patriotism is the extent to which it is taken and that if you dare question or criticise the country in any way you’re spitting on the flag and if you don’t like it you should get the hell out.

    As @strtdv said earlier their support of their military personnel is often very superficial and quite sickening at times when servicemen are thanked for their service yet denied medical care or housing.

    My main issue though is how politicised patriotism is and if you somehow disagree with something and wish to protest you’re somehow unamerican even though peaceful protest is about as American as you can get.  

    Many of them seem to have forgotten the nation is the people that it’s made of and not a piece of cloth to bow down to.  
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  • underdogunderdog Frets: 5605
    I like to think in the UK we are more realistic, in the US they have very little history and little to identify with, so they identify with the flag and the American dream. The reality is of course a country that cares little for the majority of the people that live in it, but they still place their faith in God and the flag.

    The UK is more realistic we know the people who run the place care very little for the average guy, we know our history and how poor we were towards foreign countries and even follow UK countries, why would we worship a flag? 

    I think you're far more likely to find people being proud of Scotland, Ireland, Wales or England than of being British.
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 1096
    It's Disneyland Patriotism. Marching bands, glitter and pom poms. 


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  • ToneControlToneControl Frets: 4118
    I think that the patriotism we see presented from the USA is too intense for many in the UK
    I assume this is based on lessons in the collective UK psyche from Hitler and Stalin
    These concerns may be inapplicable now
    However, I still feel that intense patriotism is all a bit sinister
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 18229
    I don’t care about where I was born.
    I am the juice of four limes.
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  • SchnozzSchnozz Frets: 571
    edited July 11
    Patriotism = Racism in the UK

    If the UK introduced a 'points system' like that in Canada (one of the most politically correct nations in the world) or Australia, then that too, would be deemed racist...Why would you want to select skills that would be useful to the economy and focus upon up-skilling entry-level staff? And if you did, then that means you would automatically have a disgusting attitude to any friend or associate that you currently have, that's from abroad or born to parents from abroad.

    You should also be ashamed of anything Britain did 100 years ago, because you influenced that remember? Now lets interview some football hooligans as a representation of what Britain would be like, if we were to take more pride...

    I spent some time on Interrail this Summer and listened to a Londoner apologizing for Brexit (as if you had a choice) to the Europeans in the hostel and they could not give a monkeys, but the Londoner thought they were being profound (aka crowd pleasing). A European said that they thought the EU were 'bullies', which was refreshing.

    Anyway, I'll leave it to the illogical and go back to staring at nice Basses.
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  • skunkwerxskunkwerx Frets: 1323
    Patrotism is fucking moronic if you think about it. 

    Billions of very particular instances led to my spawning on this Earth, and more specifically England, so what, I’m supposed to suck the lands dick and fly a banner with someones old drawing on it? 

    Hell nah. 

    Respect is earned. 


    Besides, If we all stop giving a fuck about where we’re from and look to where we are going, maybe act a lil selflessly on behalf of the Earth as a whole, imagine where we would be already. 
    The only easy day, was yesterday...
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  • sinbaadisinbaadi Frets: 819
    I agree, it's just a form of tribalism really.
    There are things that we are taught to be proud of from our history from an early age, and the things some of our predecessors did should be revered by the rest of us.  If that is then called pride then I'm okay with that, but to be proud simply of the label is silly.
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5436
    I work with people in several countries every day, and we each work from home so its easy to have side chats about things.  Only the UK has a hang-up about its national identity.  Americans have a flag they are proud of, which I find strange as its just a bit of cloth, but then Westminster, Buckingham Palace, Tower Bridge are just piles of stones?  They are still seen as icons of Britain. 

    As a child of the fifties, I grew up in an exciting country of V-bombers, Beatles, Minis, 1966 World Cup etc where being proud of this country was normal.  Now its seen as abnormal and we teach our kids to be ashamed of their country's history. 

    What a strange thing to do, teach kids to be ashamed...
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  • horsehorse Frets: 547
    Wolfetone said:
    ...We should shame anyone that disrespects Britain.

     How very dare they?!

    My own view is a gentler version of the article below - I feel fortunate rather than proud, and certainly not superior on that basis:

    https://tuckered.co.uk/2018/04/27/patriots-are-dicks/

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  • Axe_meisterAxe_meister Frets: 2199
    I personally find it all rather Crass and over the top.
    Many have become so patriotic they can no longer see the wood for the trees and cannot recognise the ills and faults of US society 
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  • valevale Frets: 1036
    edited July 11
    i would say much mistrust of patriotism in britain (& in general) has to be down to the fact that it's all too often the first bullsh*t & illogical button that 'not very reputable people' (politicians, right wing interest groups, hooligans) seek to press to try to enagage others in causes & arguments that logic & reason would never support.

    as with religion & tradition, patriotism falls into the same category. as often as not.
    an excuse & a non-reason appealed to justify the inexcusable & the irrational.

    go to farage/hopkins/ukip/edl/etc's twitter homepage & witness (in the comments below each tweet) a wall of supportive (hateful, fascist, racist, intolerant) comments, all bearing identical union jack/george cross/lion/bulldog/churchill avatars.
    when the people who make most noise & display of their 'patriotism' are those people you least feel any sense of solidarity of spirit or community feeling with, it's not hard to see why so many decent & reasonable people don't want anything to do with the symbolism or that kind of perverted nationalist sentiment.

    i love britain & lot of the people & the landscape & i feel proud of some of our history. but i don't feel any overwhelming need to make a big song & dance about it. it just doesn't seem necessary.

    ironically, maybe that's the most authentic & typically brit way by which brit can express their patriotism;
    by not making a huge fuss about it & just getting on with it. & let the yanks do it their way.
    hofner hussie & hayman harpie. what she said...
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32136
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson

    Remember that in the USA, you don’t have to be anti-American to be perceived as a traitor...

    Being un-American is enough.

    It has some good aspects too, but overall I prefer the British version.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 6965
    What are the benefits of patriotism to the individual?
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 13540
    Wolfetone said:
    We should shame anyone that disrespects Britain.
    This sounds like a very dangerous suggestion to me - you seem to be proposing using societal pressure to censor any criticism of the UK. Not a giant step from that to being an oppressive regime. 

    There are lots of good things about the UK, but that should not blind us to the things that should be better. 
    Be your own evil twin. 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 1929
    edited July 11
    What are the benefits of patriotism to the individual?
    Blindly following patriotism, or any other cause, saves you from the pain and effort of having to think for yourself. It brings the comfort of feeling that others support your views.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6248
    ask not what I can do for my country, ask instead what my country can do for me.

    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • DominicDominic Frets: 3533
    Are Native American "Indians" as patriotic as the descendants of European settlers ?
    Who are Americans really ?
    I don't know the answers but for some reason America has an incredibly effective way of taking numerous and diverse ethnicity immigrants and running them through a sausage factory to the point that within One generation they all emerge as starred and striped clones waving the star spangled banner and wholly identifying as proud Americans .....that seems to apply to Hispanics,Koreans,Italians,Polish ,Iranians,...........quite a phenomena.
    In Europe immigrants seem to keep their identity much more defined and their allegiance too .If National Service was introduced half the UK population would say "I go back to my country ".
    It seems that Europe and Australia allow multi-cultural society and are learning to celebrate it ........The USA does not have a multi-cultural society ......it has a multi-Origin Society but they all get "processed" and melded into an imprinted American Society to the point that they would probably fight for America if it declared war on their Country of Origin.
     Perhaps to be an American is a far greater aspiration for their population than to be a Brit or a Spaniard etc is for our population. 
     They buy into the identity 100 % .

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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 3099
    I'm not patriotic, I've no problem with other folks being if they want to be, but not in my name.

    What does bug me about it is, like anything, when it gets rammed down my throat by people telling me I SHOULD be patriotic, especially if their reason for saying it is because another country is patriotic therefore so should I be. 

    Also, for those that are in the "the bad stuff that happened years ago was not me" then by what logic can you take pride now as you've not much more influence over what the country is doing now than you did back then. Unless you want to take full credit for the government's intended flouting of human rights, oppression of those most in need and media control.

    But that's just my view, and I am quite happy with how I feel about this country, likewise patriotic folks are happy about their view of it - that's the beauty of us having our own viewpoints. I'm happy to listen to and contemplate other's views and fair play to them for having such views, however I'm not going to change just because people tell me I should, least of all because Americans are being used as a good example!

    Likewise I'm not supporting England tonight, why should I? But I wish both sides luck and may the best team win

    And if there's anything good about me, I'm the only one who knows

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  • BigLicks67BigLicks67 Frets: 490
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6248
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • BigLicks67BigLicks67 Frets: 490
    VimFuego said:
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.
    Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.
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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 3099
    It doesn't matter if nations or pride or patriotism or good exist, if we would just be a bit nicer to each other

    And if there's anything good about me, I'm the only one who knows

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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6248
    VimFuego said:
    VimFuego said:
    the idea of the nation state is a complete fiction, it's not real. People are real, they are the important bit, not the flag.
    That's a facile statement though isn't it because many things human beings deal with on a daily basis are in essence fictions or myths. We have great belief in the power of the capitalism for instance, but that in itself is built on shifting sand, money is exchanged on the world's markets that doesn't really exist. Billions of people believe in a man who sits in the clouds and is omnipotent. Just because these things aren't 'real' doesn't make them any less powerful.
    nope, what you said is a facile statement. Just because lots of people believe something doesn't make it real. Not sure what "powerful" has got to do with anything, you're making that up I guess.
    My statement stands, you are wrong.
    Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.
    you're welcome.

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • OctafishOctafish Frets: 982
    Wolfetone said:

    We should shame anyone that disrespects Britain.

    Surely this is satire, if not North Korea's that way >>>> Blind patriotism is for the bovine and/or oppressed.
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  • JezWyndJezWynd Frets: 2330
    ICBM said:
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson



    Last refuge? Let's hope so.
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