Patriotism

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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    quarky said:

    Nationality is just an accident of birth.  Patriotism is merely supine worship of that accident.

    It's brainless and it's horse shit - but mostly it's a zero sum game.

    Yes, we invented; parliamentary democracy, clean drinking water for the masses and television - but we also invented; Apartheid, concentration camps ...and television.
    Yeah, we didn't really invent concentration camps, not in the way that the term is typically used (as extermination camps). 

    You are right (although I was lol'd for saying so).

    The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

    The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

    The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 6899
    Fretwired said:

    TOP 10 BLACK COUNTRY WESTERNS

    1. Lye Noon

    2. Blazing Saddlers

    3. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Our Kid

    4. Dancing With Wolves

    5. No Country for Oldbury Men

    6. Bad Day At Blackheath

    7. A Fist Full Of Scratchings

    8. Once Upon A Time in the West Midlands

    9. Hang Em High Bullen

    10. High Arcal Plains Drifter


    Brilliant ! Thanks @west ;; enjoyed that link. There's still a very high probability of getting shot by someone from Lye to this day.

    You left out Black country, How the West (Brom) was won, 3:10 to Dudley, Wild wild West Bromwich ..
    The Good, the Bad and the Baggies? 


    Or The Good, The Bad, and the Dudley
    In terms of word play that's better. Possible title for my first album...
    I feel the warm, healing, liquid presence of God’s genuine cold-filtered grace. 
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  • TeetonetalTeetonetal Frets: 5718
    I'm not keen on nationalism and patriotism. Always strikes me as an exercise in self glorification and justification whilst conveniently forgetting the shit things that have been done in your name . Much better for people to have pride in the individuals they know, the things they achieve and the kindness they bestow.

    Flags can fuck right off.
     
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2185
    Fretwired said:
    The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

    And even then, anyone who did the *smallest* amount of research before jumping to conclusions, would see that deaths in those camps (of which disease was the primary cause) when DOWN over time, not up, as the British did everything they could to improve conditions. 

    But that doesn't fit the modern rhetoric. 

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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 394
    I'm going to the USA next week for a month to see my sister - in Salt Lake City. I LOVE this part of the US - would move there in a heratbeat if I could, although being a foreigner is quite unusual in SLC; nobody really visits it.

    It makes the whole patriotism very difficult, especially when at a public event and they play the American anthem. I'll stand for the US anthem, but I don't put my hand on my heart. I'm always conscious it just takes one nutter in the crowd to notice it and take offence. Makes me want to talk loudly in my best posh English accent.
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  • ewalewal Frets: 663

    Flags can fuck right off.
     
    Someone up the road from me was flying a Union flag out their window at the weekend. My natural reaction was that it must be some sort of drink fuelled pre-12 July affinity with the Orange Order sort of statement. Or a Rangers supporter excited about the start of the new season (both of which you don't really expect in Perth). Not for a moment did I (or I suspect any of my neighbours) think it was an innocent display of British patriotism. That just doesn't happen round here.

    Flags can indeed fuck right off.
    The Scrambler-EE Walk soundcloud experience
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  • munckeemunckee Frets: 1030
    The idea of a nation is the same as the idea of religion really except that it doesn't require a father christmas type character or set of agreed values, just an agreed set of borders.

    Either way its just an excuse to form a group and kill other groups : )
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  • bodhibodhi Frets: 865
    quarky said:
    Fretwired said:
    The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

    And even then, anyone who did the *smallest* amount of research before jumping to conclusions, would see that deaths in those camps (of which disease was the primary cause) when DOWN over time, not up, as the British did everything they could to improve conditions. 

    But that doesn't fit the modern rhetoric. 

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
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  • ChalkyChalky Frets: 5203
    JezWynd said:
    ICBM said:
    “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.” - Samuel Johnson



    Last refuge? Let's hope so.
    Er....

    Boswell tells us that Samuel Johnson made this famous pronouncement that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel on the evening of April 7, 1775. He doesn't provide any context for how the remark arose, so we don't really know for sure what was on Johnson's mind at the time.

    However, Boswell assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.

    For more of Samuel Johnson's thoughts on patriotism in general, go to the patriotism page.

    For a discussion on a possible false patriot who Johnson might have been thinking of, see this discussion

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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2185
    edited July 11
    bodhi said:

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.

    Yes, people died in the war through incompetence and inexperience, and of course the Boer attacks. That doesn't mean that death was the purpose of the camp like it was with those camps in Germany, the USSR, the Balkan's etc. They are completely different, and it is a bit disrespectful to those who did die in those camps in WW2 onwards, to pretend that their murder/extermination was anything other than that.

    And concerns were raised in Parliament before Emily Hobhouse raised them (not sure why that makes any difference)? 
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    bodhi said:


    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
    No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

    However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners.  The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.
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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 401
    Fretwired said:

    The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

    The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

    The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

    While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.

    The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.

    To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.

    What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!)  The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

    But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!

    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • KilgoreKilgore Frets: 901
    quarky said:
    Kilgore said:

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.

    That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism. 

     

    Eh?

    I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

    The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

    Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.


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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    edited July 11
    Fretwired said:

    The United States set up concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s. In 1864, the US government forced 8,000 Navajos to walk more than 300 miles at gunpoint from their ancestral homelands in northeastern Arizona and north western New Mexico to an camp in Bosque Redondo, a desolate tract on the Pecos River in eastern New Mexico. From 1863 to 1868, the U.S. Military persecuted and imprisoned 9,500 Navajo and 500 Mescalero Apache. Living under armed guards, more than 3,500 Navajo and Mescalero Apache men, women, and children died from starvation and disease.

    The Spanish military setup concentration camps in Cuba during the Ten Years' War (1868–78) and the Cuban War for Independence (1895–98), and similar camps set up by the United States during the Philippine–American War (1899–1902).

    The British setup concentration camps in 1901 during the second Boer War.

    While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.

    The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.

    To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.

    What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!)  The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

    But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!


    I'm sorry but this is wrong on so many levels.

    The British camps weren't death camps. Those are intentionally set up to kill people. The British didn't create the camps to kill people - they wanted to deny the Boer fighters access to home and food.

    People died in the camps from poor conditions and disease (there was a typhoid epidemic in South Africa)  which is neglect not murder. British charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which it did. However, Boer guerillas deliberately targeted supply trains heading to the camps under the belief the British would be forced to release people if there wasn't enough food or medicine. The British resolve stiffened and yes people died. Towards the end of the war hardly anyone was dying as food, medical facilities and sanitation were improved as attacks on supplies stopped.

    Over one million people were killed in Auschwitz compared to 26,370 Boer women and children and another 20, 000 black Africans who died in British run camps. My maths is not brilliant but I don't think your statement the death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, holds water.


    Your other statement doesn't stack up either:  To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period. Is

    Some official figures of deaths in captivity. I excluded the death railway as that was forced labour.

    Americans: 36,260 Military of whom 13,381 died as POWS; Australians: 21,000 military of whom 8031 died as POWS; British: 50,000+ military of who 12,433 died as POWS; Dutch: 100,000+ military of whom an estimated 25,000 died as POWS. It is estimated 25,000 Indian POWs died.

    Thirteen ships were sunk while transporting 15,712 POWs from South East Asia to Japan. Some of the ships sunk had no survivors. An estimated 10,720 prisoners died on these unmarked Hell Ships on the way to Japan.

    Not sure where you get your ideas from but they don't stand up to scrutiny.


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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2185

    While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.

    The Nazis had labor camps, concentration camps and death camps. Auschwitz was a death camp, Dachau was a concentration camp. The death rate at the British concentration camps for native Africans was closer to that of Auschwitz, that of their Boer prisoners a bit lower, and Dachau, far, far lower than that.

    To put this in perspective, the Japanese, as horrifically as they treated their prisoners of war (and it was horrific, I had an uncle who didn't come back from Burma), they treated those prisoners better than the British treated the Boers (including women and children) based on their percentages of those who died in the camps over the given period.

    What we did to the Africans from Boer areas is unspeakably worse, up to the levels of deaths seen at the Nanking Massacre (the Japanese again - see, it's not all us!)  The British government of the time appeared to actively want people to suffer. The Boers have actually saved samples of the poisoned flour and flour with ground glass in it given to the starving Boers in the Death Camps.

    But, like I said before, it's not all one-way. Patriotism is stupid because for everything we've done that we should be proud of, there's something that we should be ashamed of ...and vice-versa. So, we might have invented concentration camps - but, on the other hand, we also gave the world... er... I dunno... How about... um... Adele!

    OK, riddle me this, if they camps were "death camps", why did they do all they could to IMPROVE conditions and mortality rates?

    You are taking a single statistic, and using it to compare different camps created in different eras for different reasons, and saying, "oh look, the are the same!"
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 31097
    ChuckManual said:

    While it’d be fair to argue that America and Spain went some way to creating a form of concentration camp (in name, at least), it was the British who invented actual death camps.
    If you want to be really correct it probably wasn't the British, or the Americans or even the Spanish. It's more likely to have been the Mongols in China or Europe, the Arabs or the Crusaders in Palestine, the Romans in Carthage and Gaul, the Egyptians in Nubia or the Greeks at Troy. Or when modern humans wiped out the Neanderthals.

    Humans are just nasty, murderous creatures whenever there's an argument about territory, resources, race, religion or one of the other things we constantly fight about.

    To be fair, we're probably very slowly getting more civilised, although it doesn't take a lot for the mask to slip.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2185
    Kilgore said:
    quarky said:
    Kilgore said:

    You only have to look at Russia to see what happens when the state attempts to encourage a greater degree of patriotic fervour...

    The rehabilitation of Stalin.

    That isn't really true in my opinion. Leftist doctines (like Marxism) tend to be diametircally opposed to nationlism ("the workers have no country"). Where nationalism gives people a sense of belonging and caring, so strong, people are willing to fight and die for strangers, to preserve a way of life, Russia initally went the other way with Marxism. 
    Eh?

    I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

    The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

    Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.
    Ah OK. Fair enough. Yeah it has gone around in a circle hasn't it. I wonder how much of that is influenced by the rise in Nationalism in Eastern Europe that lead to those nations escaping the USSR? 

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  • HeartfeltdawnHeartfeltdawn Frets: 10837
    Kilgore said:
    Eh?

    I think you got the wrong end of the stick. I was talking about the political rehabilitation of Stalin himself in modern Russia.

    The rolling back of the destalinisation initiated by Kruschev. Putin himself has hinted at renaming Volgograd as Stalingrad again. All in the name of a modern Russian nationalism.

    Ironic really as Stalin was a Georgian. In the early days fellow Bolsheviks were dismissive of his origins and took the piss out of his broad Georgian accent.


    I can't remember much of Russian history at university but wasn't Stalin someone who went all over the place when it comes to nationalism over his lifetime? 
    I make Jeremy Paxman look like Fingermouse. 
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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 401
    edited July 11
    OK, after a bit of research (probably best done before commiting things to print) it turns out that my old history teacher, Mr Williams (Welsh ...hmmm... suspicious) may have been a bit wide of the mark on just how bad the British (the English) were on this score.

    Mainly though, I'm annoyed that the huge lengths I went to, to make an Adele joke, were overshadowed by my facts being all over the place... 

    I'm sticking well-and-truly to my original assertion that Patriotism is horse shit though!
    Not much of the gear, even less idea.
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    OK, after a bit of research (probably best done before commiting things to print) it turns out that my old history teacher, Mr Williams (Welsh ...hmmm... suspicious) may have been a bit wide of the mark on just how bad the British (the English) were on this score.

    Mainly though, I'm annoyed that the huge lengths I went to, to make an Adele joke, were overshadowed by my facts being all over the place...  :/
    Go on .. tell the Adele joke again .... :-)
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  • ChuckManualChuckManual Frets: 401
    Fretwired said:

    Go on .. tell the Adele joke again .... :-)
    I'll tell another...

    Q: How does Adele like her eggs in the morning?
    A: In cake.
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  • darthed1981darthed1981 Frets: 1680
    I wrote a song for Adele once, got rejected though.

    Was called "You left me...but I'm not going to go on about it"
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  • bodhibodhi Frets: 865
    Fretwired said:
    bodhi said:

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
    No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

    However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners.  The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.
    There are lots of different numbers and percentages floating around on the interwebs.

    This Red Cross article puts it at 10%, too.
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  • Phil_aka_PipPhil_aka_Pip Frets: 8591
    My dad used to say that patriotism is OK if it means working for the good of your country, but when it becomes nationalism it can't be right because that is working for the good of your country to the detriment of other countries.
    "Working" software has only unobserved bugs. (Parroty Error: Pieces of Nine! Pieces of Nine!)
    Seriously: If you value it, take/fetch it yourself
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  • FretwiredFretwired Frets: 15748
    bodhi said:
    Fretwired said:
    bodhi said:

    10% of the Boer/Afrikaner population died in those camps, if I remember correctly.  That's quite a grim statistic, whatever the case may be.

    Did conditions not improve only due to pressure from the likes of Emily Hobhouse?

    That's the way I recall it.

    Didn't help the 10% much, though.
    No they didn't - nearly 10 per cent of the population were interred. Many of the men were sent overseas and returned OK after the war. There were approximately 26,000 deaths in the camps, mostly women and children who died from disease brought on by poor conditions and not enough food. Charities were appalled and got the British government to improve conditions which they did. Not our finest hour.

    However the war was brutal. The British lost over 22,000 dead and the same again wounded. The Boers lost around 6,000 men killed. The Boers would often not take prisoners.  The war cost over £2.5 billion in today's money which is a lot considering there were no expensive modern weapon systems.
    There are lots of different numbers and percentages floating around on the interwebs.

    This Red Cross article puts it at 10%, too.

    That article is poorly worded. The figures seem to be similar to mine in terms of deaths. They claim about 27,000 died in the camps which would make the Boer population 270,000 which is far too small. They also point out, which I'd forgotten, that the Boer War was called the typhoid war as so many civilians (especially in the camps) and soldiers died from the disease.

    I don't think the percentages add up. Official records show that around 27,000 civilians died in British camps and around 20,000 black Africans which was appalling. Whichever way you look at it it was a dark stain on the British Empire and should not be forgotten.




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  • jonnyburgojonnyburgo Frets: 5901
    Im not sure that most patriots could adequately explain their patriotism. Just like the slack jawed racist brexiteers. Now im not saying that everyone that voted for Brexit is a bit thick and racist just that all the thick racist people voted brexit.

    Patriotism never has meant anything to me. Be proud of yourself, not a football team or the piece of Earth you happened to be born on.
    "OUR TOSSPOT"
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  • sev112sev112 Frets: 367
    What country does one choose to be patriotic over?
     - the one you are born in
    - the one on the front of your current passport, or your other one
    - the one your birth parents “were” (however you determine that? )
    - the one your adopted parents “were”
    - the one your sperm donor and surrogate mother “were”
    - what your genetics say you came from
    - who you pay your taxes to
    - where you currently live
    - where your second home is
    - the one you are trying to emigrate to
    - the one you are just leaving 
    - the one that will let you play sport for their national team 
    - what you feel like being today


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  • VimFuegoVimFuego Frets: 6033
    edited July 12
    hang on, I was adopted?!?

    and any country desperate enough to let me play for their national team is so hard up I'd not want to live there

    I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.

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  • Emp_FabEmp_Fab Frets: 12846
    I’m sure most countries would be more than happy to let you pay for their national team, hard up or not.
    98% shouting at clouds and 2% laminate flooring
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  • I’ve been on this forum for a couple of years and have avoided discussions on politics and nationalism, as I see it as a nice escape from reality; but I now feel like saying something. I am from Wales. My first language is Welsh, as was my parents, grandparents, my wife, children, many friends and the majority of residents where I live. My views are totally shaped by inheriting this ancient language and heritage, which I love deeply. 

    My feelings of patriotism for Wales are influenced by the threat and real possibilty that my culture could dissapear in a generation or two under the tide of British nationslism and anglicisation, be it deliberate or not. I want to stand up and defend my language and culture against this. If it dies in Wales, it’s gone forever. This leads me to having no warm affinity to Britain, or the United Kingdom if Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it’s correctly called, as a state. It’s not personal as I have good English friends. I feel no warmth to GB; I am Welsh. It’s a distinct nation, as is French, Croat or Greek. Perhaps being from a small nation makes is easier to be patriotic without feelings if guilt. I have been reluctant to mention this on the fretboard till now as us welsh speakers are long used to being attacked and put down for speaking our language [gulp] 


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