R9 finish marked by guitar stand

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  • When I see problems such as this with 'nitro' finishes (i.e. lacquer finishes with just enough nitrocellulose added to the mix to ensure the finish will craze and fade over time) one phrase always comes to mind, 'Not fit for purpose'.

    Personally, I wouldn't buy a guitar with such a finish, especially when acrylic can be sprayed as thin, or even thinner, than 'nitro' and is in every way indistinguishable from 'nitro', other than lacking nitro's susceptibility to damage and tendency to deteriorate over time. That said, I do understand that for some such deterioration is exactly why they love 'nitro' lacquer finishes!
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  • TADodgerTADodger Frets: 59
    I may be one of those that likes natural ageing. I just don't really want it to be in the form of a dull blob in the finish - and not after three weeks  :s
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  • hyperbenhyperben Frets: 320
    Since so many guitars are finished this way I agree with you. Many guitar stands are not fit for purpose. I mean how difficult can it be!? Hercules manage ok
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  • SimonCSimonC Frets: 730
    Even with a Hercules stand, beware the black plastic plugs they use in the ends of the tubulars, my Les Paul bears the scars.
    A nice chicken wrap, looovely lum’y lum’y chi’n
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  • edited October 10
    hyperben said:
    Since so many guitars are finished this way I agree with you. Many guitar stands are not fit for purpose. I mean how difficult can it be!? Hercules manage ok
    I meant that the finish clearly is not fit for purpose. After all, 'nitro' finishes are susceptible to damage from many other things as well, from straps to cases and even the player's hands!
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  • hyperbenhyperben Frets: 320
    hyperben said:
    Since so many guitars are finished this way I agree with you. Many guitar stands are not fit for purpose. I mean how difficult can it be!? Hercules manage ok
    I meant that the finish clearly is not fit for purpose. After all, 'nitro' finishes are susceptible to damage from many other things as well, from straps to cases and even the player's hands!
    Yes I know what you meant  ;)
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  • KitsuneKitsune Frets: 226
    I covered my stand in masking tape when I got my first nitro finish guitar. Seems to have worked fine and that was 2007.
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  • I had the nitro finish on one of my Gibson’s damaged by the stand covering, luckily it was only a Melody Maker and not one of my more expensive guitars. I now use Hercules stands for my nitro finished guitars and have had no problems, cost a bit more but well worth it. I currently have four but will eventually replace all my cheaper stands with them.
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 20533
    I find it quite remarkable that stand manufacturers render their stands unusable for guitars with nitro finishes,

    Donald Trump has spoken movingly about 7-Eleven. It reminded him, he said, of the way Americans came together in 1941 after Pearl Necklace.

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  • hyperbenhyperben Frets: 320
    Gassage said:
    I find it quite remarkable that stand manufacturers render their stands unusable for guitars with nitro finishes,
    Agree with this. Guitars with this type of finish are really common. These guitar stands are not fit for purpose. And you only find out when it’s too late.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32830
    Gassage said:
    I find it quite remarkable that stand manufacturers render their stands unusable for guitars with nitro finishes,
    I agree, but I find it equally remarkable that nitro is still being used on guitars. For things like this where it’s a reproduction of a vintage guitar, probably fair enough, but for the standard modern ranges they really should have moved on by now. It just causes a lot of problems for owners.

    Although to be accurate, polyurethane isn’t immune from chemical damage either, although it’s less prone to it.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • GassageGassage Frets: 20533
    ICBM said:
    Gassage said:
    I find it quite remarkable that stand manufacturers render their stands unusable for guitars with nitro finishes,
    I agree, but I find it equally remarkable that nitro is still being used on guitars. For things like this where it’s a reproduction of a vintage guitar, probably fair enough, but for the standard modern ranges they really should have moved on by now. It just causes a lot of problems for owners.

    Although to be accurate, polyurethane isn’t immune from chemical damage either, although it’s less prone to it.
    Ok but how many of us have got guitars that are either old or reissues or CS type things? I’d say many on here.

    Donald Trump has spoken movingly about 7-Eleven. It reminded him, he said, of the way Americans came together in 1941 after Pearl Necklace.

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  • AdamskiAdamski Frets: 757
    Had Hercules stands for years and currently have 6 high end Nitro finished guitars sitting on mine. No probs. 
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32830
    Gassage said:

    Ok but how many of us have got guitars that are either old or reissues or CS type things? I’d say many on here.
    Yes, and I would say that most of us are aware that they need to be careful with them, as you should be if you’re spending vintage or reissue-type money.

    I’m really meaning all the ones where some unfortunate kid buys his first Les Paul Standard or Studio, puts it on a stand and then finds a massive mark - or worse - in the back of the neck.

    Gibson seem to be quite happy to change all sorts of stuff on their modern models, but for some reason blindly stick with the two things that cause the most problems for owners in the real world - the nitro finish, and you know what the other one is :).

    At least Fender use sensible finishes on anything other than the Custom Shop models... unless you want to pay extra for a Mexican one with nitro over the top ;).
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • martmart Frets: 2792
    Gassage said:
    ICBM said:
    Gassage said:
    I find it quite remarkable that stand manufacturers render their stands unusable for guitars with nitro finishes,
    I agree, but I find it equally remarkable that nitro is still being used on guitars. For things like this where it’s a reproduction of a vintage guitar, probably fair enough, but for the standard modern ranges they really should have moved on by now. It just causes a lot of problems for owners.

    Although to be accurate, polyurethane isn’t immune from chemical damage either, although it’s less prone to it.
    Ok but how many of us have got guitars that are either old or reissues or CS type things? I’d say many on here.
    Yes, many on here, but surely only a minority of the general guitar-owning populace.
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  • BillKatBillKat Frets: 1093

    When I see problems such as this with 'nitro' finishes (i.e. lacquer finishes with just enough nitrocellulose added to the mix to ensure the finish will craze and fade over time) one phrase always comes to mind, 'Not fit for purpose'.

    Personally, I wouldn't buy a guitar with such a finish, especially when acrylic can be sprayed as thin, or even thinner, than 'nitro' and is in every way indistinguishable from 'nitro', other than lacking nitro's susceptibility to damage and tendency to deteriorate over time. That said, I do understand that for some such deterioration is exactly why they love 'nitro' lacquer finishes!
    This is some sort of Google-led fantasy and on a technical front is entirely bollocks.



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  • Imagine the outcry if Gibson suddenly decided to stop using nitro. Us guitarists are a conservative,(with a small c), lot and most of us like things to remain unchanged. It’s not too much to ask that stands be made of something that doesn’t react to nitrocellulose paint.
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  • Philly_QPhilly_Q Frets: 4608
    edited October 11
    This "fit for purpose" debate is weird.  Clearly it's the stands which are not fit for purpose. 

    The manufacturers should all be well aware that many guitars are nitro finished and they have been for decades, it's not some shocking new development which has taken the stand market by surprise.

    Stands are accessories.  Supporting products (literally).  They serve no purpose in their own right.  We buy stands for our guitars.  Nobody goes into a guitar shop and says "I'm looking for something to go with my stand".

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 32830
    Imagine the outcry if Gibson suddenly decided to stop using nitro.
    I doubt anyone would really notice, other than those who buy Historics.


    Us guitarists are a conservative,(with a small c), lot and most of us like things to remain unchanged.
    It would also be better if guitarists were less conservative about changing things when it's an improvement.


    It’s not too much to ask that stands be made of something that doesn’t react to nitrocellulose paint.
    No it isn't, but equally it's not too much to ask that guitar makers don't use a finish which is notorious for reacting with everything from stands to case linings to straps to clothing.

    And the vast majority of guitar makers don't.
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • hyperbenhyperben Frets: 320
    This thread has become incredibly boring
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  • Imagine the outcry if Gibson suddenly decided to stop using nitro. Us guitarists are a conservative,(with a small c), lot and most of us like things to remain unchanged. It’s not too much to ask that stands be made of something that doesn’t react to nitrocellulose paint.
    You do know that ever since the 1950's Gibson's custom colours and metallic finishes contained no nitrocellulose at all, and even their standard colours were acrylic based, albeit as part of a lacquer system (i.e. one that never fully cures and can be dissolved in thinners), with just enough 'nitro' added to give the ageing effect customers expected?  What's more modern 'nitro' formulations are nothing like what were available in the past, not least because many of the solvents they contained have now been banned or are highly controlled.




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  • BillKat said:

    This is some sort of Google-led fantasy and on a technical front is entirely bollocks.
    You need to be rather more specific about what exactly you think is 'bollocks'.

    Please take a look at I the two links above, and those below, and highlight for me what part of what they say is 'bollocks'. Ta!





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  • BillKatBillKat Frets: 1093

    You're fishing for pages from the internet, taking them as gospel, mixing up info, usually incorrectly, as if fact. And are happy to dictate info to people on that basis as if you 'know'.

    No I'm not going to pick over articles and get into some sort of debate with you. Try opening a can of acrylic and a can of celly (nitro), try mixing and spraying and then come back and tell us all about it. I will say quickly that acrylic is not at all like nitro to use except for being solvent based. Being soluble doesn't mean it doesn't "cure". That's too vague a term. Solvents are easily available just like always. I would suggest you quit telling people what's what on the basis of web searches though and leave things you don't know about to people who do have relevant experience.


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  • edited October 11
    BillKat said:

    No I'm not going to pick over articles and get into some sort of debate with you.

    Clearly you much prefer to resort to 'I know better' bluster than actually providing any relevant information, other than noting that acrylic is not like 'nitro' from the perspective of the sprayer using it, which is ultimately of no interest or relevance to the player. 

    As  ICBM has noted, if Gibson stopped using 'nitro' "I doubt anyone would really notice, other than those who buy Historics", so are you going to get abusive with him as well, telling him to 'leave things you don't know about to people who do have relevant experience'?

    Odd that so many seem to write articles about finishes and their history in the guitar industry whilst apparently knowing nothing about the subject, at least in comparison to your own expertise. You should write and submit some articles putting them right, it might be a nice little earner for you.
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  • edited October 11
     P.s. I know you can't be arsed to read articles on the subject, but perhaps you could say whether these claims are correct or not?
    Mostly, Fender sprayed nitrocellulose clear coats over the acrylic coats, and because the clear coats yellowed and checked over the years, many people have assumed wrongly that these finishes were pure nitrocellulose.
    from possibly as early as 1956 DuPont started using acrylic binders in its nitrocellulose lacquer to prevent yellowing and colour fading, and to inhibit checking. Even more confusing is Gibson’s use of the word ‘poly’ to describe its metallic finishes, when they were acrylic like the rest of Gibson’s custom colours.


    P.s How about John Suhr? Is he also one of those who know nothing about guitar finishes? In his opinion (go to 6:30) the claim that 'nitro' affects the sound of a guitar is bull sh*t.


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  • BillKatBillKat Frets: 1093
    edited October 11

    Call it bluster, if you want, abusive if you want. Not that it's relevant but for one I've been spraying since about 1992 (prob due a tea break) and for the other the onus is not on me to provide info on this paint vs that, it's on you to not randomly pick info on the basis of web search, mix things up, tell people what's what and spread misinformation that hangs around for years to come.

    Yes Fender did in some cases use acrylic over cellulose, apparently because Leo didn't want fading and wanted his logos to look better for longer. But how much of that info is straight from Leo I've not the faintest.
    We've been over the word poly many a time on here so not going there again.


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  • BillKat said:

    the onus is not on me to provide info on this paint vs that, it's on you to not randomly pick info on the basis of web search, mix things up, tell people what's what and spread misinformation that hangs around for years to come.

    I have not 'randomly picked information on the basis of a web search'. I have looked for sources of information that appear to be credible and well-informed and which correlate with other sources of information on the topic.

    If those sources are wrong, why not explain why they are wrong? Especially given that those sources will doubtlessly 'hang about for years to come' and your rebuttal would do likewise, putting right no-nothings from the writers of articles for specialist woodworking and Guitar magazines to John Suhr. 

    No need to get bogged down in minutia, such as what the word 'cure' means (I was specifically thinking of the way nitro remains open to influence from, for example, changes in temperature, softening in the heat and becoming more brittle with the cold) or the availability of solvents (which is something that is more relevant to manufacturers because of the environmental controls they now have to abide by). 

    Just stick to the important stuff. For example, does 'nitro' really offer anything other than its supposed 'authenticity' and its propensity to age?
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  • Imagine the outcry if Gibson suddenly decided to stop using nitro. Us guitarists are a conservative,(with a small c), lot and most of us like things to remain unchanged. It’s not too much to ask that stands be made of something that doesn’t react to nitrocellulose paint.
    You do know that ever since the 1950's Gibson's custom colours and metallic finishes contained no nitrocellulose at all, and even their standard colours were acrylic based, albeit as part of a lacquer system (i.e. one that never fully cures and can be dissolved in thinners), with just enough 'nitro' added to give the ageing effect customers expected?  What's more modern 'nitro' formulations are nothing like what were available in the past, not least because many of the solvents they contained have now been banned or are highly controlled.




    No I wasn’t aware of the fact that some Gibson finishes contained no nitrocellulose at all, but I still think that if Gibson stopped using nitrocellulose paint it would further damage a company already under a great deal of critical stress for trying to progress away from their core models.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 3823

    Tonally, it probably doesn't make any difference as long as the finish is thin, but nitro does seem to feel nicer.  I have a nitro (over basecoat) AVRI Strat from around 2001 and it does feel different from a Mexican Strat I have.  I definitely prefer the feel of the AVRI.

    The big issue is not necessarily just about how well nitro ages, but how badly poly can age.  If you get hold of a well used early 90s PRS, the dings in it will look a lot worse than a nitro finished guitar of the same age.

    I know PRS have changed their finish these days and I don't know how the newer PRS V12 finish will stack up over time, but at least you have a fair idea that a nitro finish will look good years down the line.

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  • crunchman said:

    The big issue is not necessarily just about how well nitro ages, but how badly poly can age. 

    But the 'poly vs. nitro' thing is a bit of a false dichotomy when thin acrylic / polyester finishes can give the best of both worlds. (Unless, of course, you specifically want the aged look that nitro gives.) This is what Feline Guitars had to say on this topic on here recently.

    I have favoured a thin Polyester on many of my own guitars. I like Nitro but have seen so many issues with nitro finished guitars and so many players gripe about the tackiness of the necks unless the nitro is really old that I don't necessarily hold it in the same hallowed terms that all the internet seems to.

    Doubtless Billkat will be along shortly telling Jonathan Law of Feline to "leave things you don't know about to people who do have relevant experience". =)
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