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  • BigsbyBigsby Frets: 934
    crunchman said:
    Bigsby said:

      You think the EU are the issue, try taking a closer look at Westminster, and the clowns we've got in parliament, the unelected members of the lords and civil servants. After two years of negotiating, they've got a deal none of them actually want or believe in, by contrast, the whole block of remaining EU nations have managed to agree it without an argument. And still some people say the UK will be able to negotiate better trade deals outside the EU. What a joke.

    No-one in the EU is arguing over it because it is a great deal for them.  We will be stuck in the free market and customs union, unable to leave, but we won't be able to vote against their directives any more.  If our government hadn't caved in at every turn, then you would have seen friction and division among the EU 27.

    Firstly, it's not a 'great' deal for them, as the EU would prefer the UK didn't leave. It's no more than an acceptable deal - as evidenced by their acceptance of it.

    Maybe now is a good moment to recognise that there isn't a 'great' deal available for either side: Any deal, including a no deal, is going to suck to some degree. It was pure fantasy, even idiocy, to believe that we'd leave with a 'great' deal, done within two years. Sadly, people voted for that non-existent fantasy deal, and now we're facing the consequences.

    But the important point you're making is that it was OUR government that caved in at every turn. That should be enough to kill the fantasy that Britain is about to become a 'beacon of free trade' in the world. Or that being governed by Westminster alone is going to be any better for us.

    However, your claim that if the British government hadn't caved in, then we would've seen friction and division in the EU is unsupported by any evidence. They more likely would've closed ranks and simply let the UK drop out without a deal. They have far less to lose from that outcome than we do - though, of course, it's not something they want either.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 4065
    edited December 5
    Bigsby said:
    crunchman said:
    Bigsby said:

      You think the EU are the issue, try taking a closer look at Westminster, and the clowns we've got in parliament, the unelected members of the lords and civil servants. After two years of negotiating, they've got a deal none of them actually want or believe in, by contrast, the whole block of remaining EU nations have managed to agree it without an argument. And still some people say the UK will be able to negotiate better trade deals outside the EU. What a joke.

    No-one in the EU is arguing over it because it is a great deal for them.  We will be stuck in the free market and customs union, unable to leave, but we won't be able to vote against their directives any more.  If our government hadn't caved in at every turn, then you would have seen friction and division among the EU 27.

    Firstly, it's not a 'great' deal for them, as the EU would prefer the UK didn't leave. It's no more than an acceptable deal - as evidenced by their acceptance of it.

    Maybe now is a good moment to recognise that there isn't a 'great' deal available for either side: Any deal, including a no deal, is going to suck to some degree. It was pure fantasy, even idiocy, to believe that we'd leave with a 'great' deal, done within two years. Sadly, people voted for that non-existent fantasy deal, and now we're facing the consequences.

    But the important point you're making is that it was OUR government that caved in at every turn. That should be enough to kill the fantasy that Britain is about to become a 'beacon of free trade' in the world. Or that being governed by Westminster alone is going to be any better for us.

    However, your claim that if the British government hadn't caved in, then we would've seen friction and division in the EU is unsupported by any evidence. They more likely would've closed ranks and simply let the UK drop out without a deal. They have far less to lose from that outcome than we do - though, of course, it's not something they want either.

    Dropping out without a deal in the short term would probably let us negotiate a much better deal in the long term.

    Even if the EU has been united over this, mainly to encourage others not to drop out, it's not exactly a model for how to run an organisation properly.  There are all kinds of issues.  Look at the Italian government sticking its middle finger up at EU budget requirements, or Hungary's repression, or Greece's (among others) financial problems, which have merely been kicked down the road, and not resolved at all.

    Even if they have united against us, the EU is a complete basket case.  That's the main reason we need to leave.  It's going to unravel eventually.

    The irony is that a lot of their regulations are actually quite good.  Getting back to the original topic of this thread, they are very good on trying to protect people's data, although they do it in a ham fisted way at times. They are also pretty good on food standards and animal welfare.  They are too much in hock to certain business interests though in some of these issues (see Article 13 as an example).

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  • BigsbyBigsby Frets: 934
    crunchman said:

    Dropping out without a deal in the short term would probably let us negotiate a much better deal in the long term.

    Even if the EU has been united over this, mainly to encourage others not to drop out, it's not exactly a model for how to run an organisation properly.  There are all kinds of issues.  Look at the Italian government sticking its middle finger up at EU budget requirements, or Hungary's repression, or Greece's (among others) financial problems, which have merely been kicked down the road, and not resolved at all.

    Even if they have united against us, the EU is a complete basket case.  That's the main reason we need to leave.  It's going to unravel eventually.

    The irony is that a lot of their regulations are actually quite good.  Getting back to the original topic of this thread, they are very good on trying to protect people's data, although they do it in a ham fisted way at times. They are also pretty good on food standards and animal welfare.  They are too much in hock to certain business interests though in some of these issues (see Article 13 as an example).

    If we drop out without a deal, we're still in a weak bargaining position (a much smaller market wanting access to a much larger market), and we've still got a bunch of inexperienced incompetents negotiating for us, against a team of negotiators who've been conducting international negotiations throughout their careers. The EU are pretty good at doing deals where they don't get shafted, and not doing deals where they would - as members we've got no excuse for not knowing that.

    As for the EU being divided, well, perhaps they are, but they're a lot less divided than the Tory party right now - and they're the people who created this mess... and just so they could grab enough UKIP votes to take power for themselves. The one thing I'd like to see unravel is the sodding Tory party! 
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  • BlaendulaisBlaendulais Frets: 768
    Can this be moved to some Brexit thread so I can read about Guitars
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 4065
    Can this be moved to some Brexit thread so I can read about Guitars
    Just not on the Guitar Center (can't even spell it properly) website :)
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Can this be moved to some Brexit thread so I can read about Guitars
    This thread is easily avoided if you move your mouse cursor up or down before clicking.
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  • deanodeano Frets: 317
    Brize said:

    So once again the EU gets blamed for something that's someone else's fault. In this case companies being lazy. 
    Or companies trying to grapple with impenetrable regulation that no two compliance consultants can agree on.
    It's almost as if the EU introduced the legislation knowing it would take years of legal argument in the ECJ, in order to keep lawyers busy and enable the EU to raise revenue via fines. But the EU would never do that... would they? I mean the EU is lovely and clever and really great! They wouldn't... surely not?
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  • ShrewsShrews Frets: 338
    ** THREAD OVERTAKEN BY BREXIT ALERT**

    Image result for brexit frustration
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Bigsby said:

    Very selective quoting on your part. From the same article:

    Since she assumed her current role in November 2014, Ms Vestager has had several high-profile clashes with American tech firms. In May she fined Facebook €110m for misleading EU trustbusters about its takeover of WhatsApp, a messaging service. In June a long-running investigation resulted in a €2.4bn fine on Google for using its search engine to promote its own comparison-shopping service. EU trustbusters have also charged Google with using its Android operating system to promote its mobile-phone apps and services over those of rivals. That investigation continues.

    Brussels believes the growing power of big tech firms to shape politics, society and the economy requires a counterweight. The battle is of greater urgency, the commission reckons, because the data that tech monopolies have accumulated make it far harder for upstart firms to displace them or keep them in check.

    In some of the battles she has started, tech giants had a case to answer. Facebook’s misdeed, for instance, is not much disputed. The Google Android investigation seems to have merit.

    Her main aim may have been to get the issue of corporate-tax evasion firmly on the agenda. If so, it was a tactical masterstroke.
    If that was her main aim, it was less a tactical masterstroke and more a disingenuous ploy. I naturally have no issue with tackling out-and-out corporate tax evasion, but does anybody really give a shit about Google bundling its search engine with Android phones? It comes across as more of a personal crusade than a righteous quest.
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Shrews said:
    **PEOPLE SURPRISED THAT THREAD ABOUT AN EU DIRECTIVE INCLUDES REFERENCES TO BREXIT ALERT**

    Image result for brexit frustration
    FTFY.
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  • BigsbyBigsby Frets: 934
    Brize said:
    Bigsby said:

    Very selective quoting on your part. From the same article:

    Since she assumed her current role in November 2014, Ms Vestager has had several high-profile clashes with American tech firms. In May she fined Facebook €110m for misleading EU trustbusters about its takeover of WhatsApp, a messaging service. In June a long-running investigation resulted in a €2.4bn fine on Google for using its search engine to promote its own comparison-shopping service. EU trustbusters have also charged Google with using its Android operating system to promote its mobile-phone apps and services over those of rivals. That investigation continues.

    Brussels believes the growing power of big tech firms to shape politics, society and the economy requires a counterweight. The battle is of greater urgency, the commission reckons, because the data that tech monopolies have accumulated make it far harder for upstart firms to displace them or keep them in check.

    In some of the battles she has started, tech giants had a case to answer. Facebook’s misdeed, for instance, is not much disputed. The Google Android investigation seems to have merit.

    Her main aim may have been to get the issue of corporate-tax evasion firmly on the agenda. If so, it was a tactical masterstroke.
    If that was her main aim, it was less a tactical masterstroke and more a disingenuous ploy. 
    Hey, just quoting the article you referenced and quoted as though it was saying something meaningful. In reality, it tends to not support what you're saying at all! Even your quote wasn't saying much: So big American corporations think the EU are being 'protectionist' when they try to curb their abuse of power - what do you expect them to say? 'It's a fair cop!'

    But if you want to just believe the words that confirm your existing beliefs, whilst disregarding anything that might disconfirm them, well, that's a great way to keep your mind closed.
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Bigsby said:

    Hey, just quoting the article you referenced and quoted as though it was saying something meaningful. In reality, it tends to not support what you're saying at all!
    I was just making the point that the morality of the situation isn't clear-cut - nothing more.
    Bigsby said:

    But if you want to just believe the words that confirm your existing beliefs, whilst disregarding anything that might disconfirm them, well, that's a great way to keep your mind closed.
    Wise words. I do hope that you're wise enough to take your own advice.
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Bigsby said:

    If we drop out without a deal, we're still in a weak bargaining position (a much smaller market wanting access to a much larger market), and we've still got a bunch of inexperienced incompetents negotiating for us, against a team of negotiators who've been conducting international negotiations throughout their careers. The EU are pretty good at doing deals where they don't get shafted, and not doing deals where they would - as members we've got no excuse for not knowing that.

    As for the EU being divided, well, perhaps they are, but they're a lot less divided than the Tory party right now - and they're the people who created this mess... and just so they could grab enough UKIP votes to take power for themselves. The one thing I'd like to see unravel is the sodding Tory party! 
    Despite our disagreements elsewhere in this thread, I agree with all of this bar the last sentence. The Tories are a shambles, but what credible alternative is there?
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  • guitartangoguitartango Frets: 112
    edited December 5
    :)
    There's a killer on the road His brain is squirmin' like a toad
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  • guitartangoguitartango Frets: 112
    very interesting but lets get back to the OP post. If you use https://www.usa-proxy.org and then enter the website URL then you should be able to browse the website. Not sure if i would use my credit card with a proxy...:)
    There's a killer on the road His brain is squirmin' like a toad
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  • BigsbyBigsby Frets: 934
    edited December 5
    Brize said:
    Bigsby said:

    If we drop out without a deal, we're still in a weak bargaining position (a much smaller market wanting access to a much larger market), and we've still got a bunch of inexperienced incompetents negotiating for us, against a team of negotiators who've been conducting international negotiations throughout their careers. The EU are pretty good at doing deals where they don't get shafted, and not doing deals where they would - as members we've got no excuse for not knowing that.

    As for the EU being divided, well, perhaps they are, but they're a lot less divided than the Tory party right now - and they're the people who created this mess... and just so they could grab enough UKIP votes to take power for themselves. The one thing I'd like to see unravel is the sodding Tory party! 
    Despite our disagreements elsewhere in this thread, I agree with all of this bar the last sentence. The Tories are a shambles, but what credible alternative is there?
    You're asking that as though the Tories are in some way credible to begin with - they aren't. And there's no one less credible IMO, the Tories just happen to be in power, (well, as long as the DUP are willing to prop them up). The only fortunate thing is that the last two years have seen them too tied up in screwing up Brexit to actually spend much time screwing up governing the country. God help us when we end up having to rely on those expenses fiddling, self aggrandising, narcissistic half wits to run the country without the EU doing half their work for them. 
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Bigsby said:

    You're asking that as though the Tories are in some way credible to begin with - they aren't. And there's no one less credible IMO
    I think you're struggling for credibility yourself with that statement. Theresa May is probably the least impressive prime minister we've ever had but the alternatives don't bear thinking about.
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  • BigsbyBigsby Frets: 934
    Brize said:
    Bigsby said:

    You're asking that as though the Tories are in some way credible to begin with - they aren't. And there's no one less credible IMO
    I think you're struggling for credibility yourself with that statement. Theresa May is probably the least impressive prime minister we've ever had but the alternatives don't bear thinking about.
    Far from it. Why pick on Theresa - she's the most credible of the bunch! She's managed to avoid a knife in the back for a couple of years, which is a pretty impressive feat in itself. But the party that managed to plant a knife firmly in Thatcher's back is utterly incapable of repeating the performance today. There's barely a competent one amongst them - they certainly don't deserve to govern, nor are they capable of it.
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  • BrizeBrize Frets: 2779
    Bigsby said:

    There's barely a competent one amongst them - they certainly don't deserve to govern, nor are they capable of it.
    I don't disagree with you, but if you think that Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Eagle, et al would be any more competent or capable, I'd like some of what you're smoking.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 9365
    Disconfirm?!

    Have we really come to this?
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 5922
    all this drivel over access to a US guitar companies website? It's a shit site anyway

    Michael Fish is God

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